Creating the Jersey Occupation Tapestry

In today's 'Small Island, Big Stories' episode, hosts Mel and Perry pay tribute to the Occupation tapestry of Jersey. This incredible crafted legacy was left to Jersey Heritage  by a talented group of people who dedicated hours of their time to put together a momentous piece of art. The tapestry tells Jersey's unique story of the Island struggle during the Second World War. 

Three very special guest speakers join Mel and Perry; Wayne Audrain the person who created the designs. Clarissa Maine, the coordinator of the panel of St. Peter and Anne-Marie Willing, who stitched and documented the project of her home parish. 

You can see the Occupation Tapestry at the Jersey Maritime Museum.  There are stories about the Occupation and Liberation of Jersey available on the Jersey Heritage website.

If you would like to support our work please consider making a donation here.

Transcript

The Jersey Heritage Podcast: The Small Island, Big Story Sessions

Creating the Occupation Tapestry with Wayne Audrain, Clarissa Maine & Anne-Marie Willing 

Perry (00:00:02):

Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,

Mel (00:00:05):

The Small Island Big Story Sessions.

Perry (00:00:08):

You are listening to Mel and Perry.

Mel (00:00:11):

In today's episode, we are going to be paying tribute to the occupation tapestry of Jersey. This incredible crafted legacy was left to us by a talented group of people who dedicated hours of their time to put together a momentous piece of art. The tapestry tells our unique story of the island struggle during the Second World War. I'm incredibly excited to be having a conversation with three very special guest speakers, Wayne Odr, the Mind that created the designs. Clarissa Main, the coordinator of the panel of St. Peter and Anne-Marie Willing, who stitched and documented the project of her home parish. First up, we have Wayne Ra, who will be sharing his story and how the concept of our tapestry came to be. So, where I'd like to start, Wayne Yes. Is if we could go back to the beginning and if you could share a little bit about the vision of the tapestry.

Wayne (00:01:03):

Okay. Yeah. Well, as you know, it's, it was to celebrate the 50th anniversary of the Liberation 98 95. We first got together as a committee. It was the Occupation Liberation Subcommittee. So it was official states committee. And that was about seven years before that. Brilliant. Now, I, I'd heard that they were going to do a tapestry project. No one had any idea what it might look like, what size it might be. So I thought, I like the sound of that. I'll volunteer just, but being an artist and also the fact that I worked for Jersey Heritage. So I had access and knowledge on the subject matter because I'd done quite a lot of exhibitions around that theme. So I went along and we talked about it. They said they would like to do a tapestry, but no size to it, no real context of the content of it specifically.

Wayne (00:02:00):

So that was the first task. So, on discussions I had with this tapestry guy from Plymouth who did the Plymouth Tapestries and I was talking to, I went over there to meet him at the technical stuff really, because I've never designed a tapestry before. But I decided then that it would be a great idea if we did 12 tapestries, because uniquely in this island we have 12 parishes. And it was a strong community device for getting the project done, you know, and a, a groundswell of support as well. And also critically, which was quite nuanced with all the constables on board. There's no way they'd refuse funding. Wow. Or the money we needed to display it at the end of the project, which was quite a considerable amount. And that work exactly <laugh>, because everyone voted for it unanimously. So we decided then that it would be 12 tapestries and the size I decided it would be in discussion with others.

Wayne (00:03:00):

It'd be not too big. 'cause It needs to be transportable and moved around all the time. But one are big enough so people could work on it. So we had three on each side, and obviously for some of those people just working upside down, which wasn't easy, was it? Yeah. So that's the way the size happened and everything. As to content, I worked at the museum with Doug Ford, who's an education officer. We used to do exhibitions together. He, he did the research and the words, and I designed to those. So I knew Doug and we'd done this exhibition covering the story of the occupation. So I knew there was at least 12 subject headings, themes that could be used for the tapestry. So we took that along that list, gave it to the committee and all their wisdom. And they looked at the content, agreed on a content, changed a few things, added some others.

Wayne (00:03:55):

So that's broadly how it came about. And then I went away and designed it really, and I knew I knew the photographs that were there, the reference that was there that I could use. So, because I used photographic reference where possible, obviously for historical accuracy, where it wasn't tied to imagine that. And there's quite a bit in the tapestry that's just out of my head. I mean, it's, it's, it's referenced in the sense that historically it happens. For example, in 19 44, 1 of the tapestries showing the island was bypassed when the allies invaded Normandy. But there's no specific reference for that. But we knew, for example, the American Air Force flew over the island. We knew the batteries fired on them. We knew bombs were dropped on or near Elizabeth Castle. Mm. So that, with that type of, you know, written reference, I could extrapolate and visually articulate that

Mel (00:04:48):

That tapestry panel is beautiful. 'cause I believe that's the St. John's panel. Yeah. Because it's got quite a, it's quite an eerie piece. 'cause It's quite dark in terms of color. The, the sky is very, very bleak. There's

Wayne (00:04:59):

A lot of dark sky. Yeah.

Mel (00:05:00):

Yeah. It's a really beautiful panel. Yeah. Another thing that I really noticed is that you've got a really red sky in all 11 panels.

Wayne (00:05:10):

11 panels. That's symbolic of the great war that was raging outside the island. 'cause The island was very cut off, you know, to, to everything else. So I put that in for that specific reason to remind people. And the the last one of course's, a liberation. So that's all blue skies

Mel (00:05:27):

Symbol of hope. Right. <laugh>, all that. Yeah. It's, I think what I love about the tapestries is the symbolism that you've fed through in terms of your design. Yeah. Because there's also as we've revisited the tapestries, we've noticed that you've also included a family.

Wayne (00:05:41):

Yeah. Often. Yes. Yeah.

Mel (00:05:43):

So can you share a little bit about why you've included that? Yeah.

Wayne (00:05:45):

Well that's just a device specifically for younger people, children, to see if they latch onto the story. You know. So it becomes a constant throughout. And also the cat appears there, about six of them. I wish I'd put one in everyone <laugh>, but for some reason I didn't. And the other thing that's the main theme of the tapestries is the dominance of the occupying troops' presence. So it looms large in each tapestry. So people are constantly reminded, this is what it was all about. Their lives were overseen by the occupying forces.

Mel (00:06:20):

And in terms of the designs, how long did they take you to produce? All 12?

Wayne (00:06:25):

Quite some time. Not so much. The designs, they, I, I can design pretty quickly, but it's, the drawing up took a long time. And the marking up for color especially.

Mel (00:06:35):

Yeah. That's really interesting.

Wayne (00:06:37):

I didn't do the tracing. You organized that. Did you? Did

Clarissa (00:06:40):

The last six I drew

Wayne (00:06:42):

Canvas did. On, on the canvas. Yeah. Because the way it was done, I designed them as sort of a three size. Then I drew them up as a black and white outline on full size white boards and marked each of those areas up for color, using the wool swatches. And then Clarissa organized the tracing through of the of the panels onto the canvas itself.

Clarissa (00:07:05):

Only the last

Wayne (00:07:06):

Six. Only the last six, yeah.

Mel (00:07:07):

And Clarissa, how long would that have taken to do that, to trace there?

Clarissa (00:07:12):

It took me quite a, a time because obviously I had a light underneath. Hard to see. And I could only really draw the major lines from what Wayne's drawing underneath. You put the canvas on the top so you could only mark out the major areas. And then the rest I had to try and feed in by hand, obviously, seeing as much as I could from the original.

Mel (00:07:44):

It's quite a labor intensive process then.

Clarissa (00:07:46):

Quite, quite a heavy job. Yeah.

Mel (00:07:50):

Yes. Full collaboration. <Laugh>. Yeah.

Wayne (00:07:52):

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Clarissa (00:07:53):

It was, well it worked in the end, didn't it? Yes. I loved that side of it,

Mel (00:07:57):

The drawing. I bet. 'cause You're an artist, aren't you, Clarissa?

Clarissa (00:08:01):

I was trained at St. Martin's, which is now is its Central School of St. Martin's in Ch Crossroad. Yes. I, I took my exams, whatever they were called in my years from there. Yes.

Mel (00:08:14):

Yeah. Wonderful. And then after the tapestry, you both collaborated on another piece, didn't you?

Clarissa (00:08:19):

<Laugh>? Yes.

Wayne (00:08:20):

Yes. I, I'd, I'd done this painting of poppies, which I particularly like. And it was quite a big acrylic. And I had an idea, I showed it to Clarissa about using her skills as an embroider, really technically. And to turn it into an embroidery. But

Clarissa (00:08:40):

The only trouble with that, talking about drawing on to the canvases, all you gave me was the horizon lie <laugh> and a photograph of your, you drew nothing else.

Wayne (00:08:50):

Well, a person of your talent,

Clarissa (00:08:51):

<Laugh>, you're very kind. But at the same time well,

Wayne (00:08:54):

You, once I felt,

Clarissa (00:08:55):

I, I really, it was amazing to

Wayne (00:08:58):

Do, to do a painting like that. You need to have a creative share in it. My line.

Clarissa (00:09:04):

<Laugh>.

Mel (00:09:06):

So in terms of the project itself, going back to the occupation tapestry, Wayne, what would you say was one of your most memorable moments?

Wayne (00:09:15):

That's difficult, isn't it? The whole project, for me, the strength was the actual process of doing it. 'cause My years in between when I finished the design and the completion of it meant I went round each tapestry continually, and the site and speaking to the people who were making it and getting my ear bent for having done something properly or whatever. <Laugh>. They weren't reluctant in coming forward.

Wayne (00:09:43):

Brilliant. And yeah. So I enjoyed that and speaking. And you gradually come to see that it meant so much to a lot of people in a really sort of emotional way, I think. You know, and there was some very talented people. Some of the work was outstanding. Some of it was quite ordinary. But that's the uniqueness of the sort of project. You know, if I wanted a masterpiece, you'd employ a dozen people from the raw school of needle work. That's not what it was all about. But for, you know, the amateurs, it was pretty good standard to it.

Clarissa (00:10:14):

Oh, it was amazing. If I, yes, pretty good standard. I mean, some of the lesser sewers would go on a, a patch that was totally plain. Yeah. And they were so happy to take part. They were happy to do nothing specifically except background, shall

Wayne (00:10:29):

We call them? Well, those were important pieces

Clarissa (00:10:31):

And they were very important. 'cause They, they had to bring out the major picture. So the background had to be right to make the whole thing pop out at you. Of course. But I mean, some of the stitches didn't take on, shall we say the faces. I mean, things like that.

Mel (00:10:49):

The more detailed inate arts,

Wayne (00:10:51):

It'd be brilliant if I could have had the opportunity to take the people who are really good at faces and put them on

Mel (00:10:59):

Every panel, every

Wayne (00:11:00):

Panel. But, you know, people, the parishes understand people became quite possessive about it. <Laugh>, they didn't want any foreigners, <laugh>,

Clarissa (00:11:08):

<Laugh>

Mel (00:11:09):

Parish. For the parish.

Wayne (00:11:10):

Parish wise <laugh>. Yes. Parish wise. Yes. Excuse me.

Clarissa (00:11:13):

Oh yes. Great competition. Yeah.

Mel (00:11:15):

Well that's, that's kind of a nice, that's kind of a nice thing about this project is that there was some, some like, would you, how do we say, some friendly competitiveness.

Wayne (00:11:23):

Yeah, there was, there was. But that's how the project got completed, really. The elements of competi, like competitiveness, you know, they're all a staggered stars. So it wasn't a race. But it was quite hard sometimes if I went along and asked them to unpick something because it was a really onerous task. Mm-Hmm. I don't think I'll ever ask you to picture

Clarissa (00:11:44):

My parents were brilliant <laugh>. No, that goes without saying. No, seriously. No. But when you did come and, and ask us to change something, it was taken on board without any question. That's true. Wayne was the boss. And other than our coordinators, tapestry wise, but Wayne had the last say on the matter, I finished,

Wayne (00:12:05):

Which, and I wasn't always right. There was one great story. I recount at the beginning of the instant Hellier, which was the second tapestry. We had the German soldiers marching through Sinia. And I originally designed it with three of rest. I decided to change it to two, I forgot to two packs out some of the legs. So when they started making it, they did these guys with three legs, <laugh>. And I said, what didn't you notice? They said, well, you drew it. We thought you were right.

Mel (00:12:40):

See, that's how much faith they had in your brain as chief designer.

Wayne (00:12:43):

Yeah. It was quite good actually. 'cause That, that was shattered. Then the faith of my ability was open to question <laugh>. What

Clarissa (00:12:49):

About the flag?

Wayne (00:12:50):

The flag? What did I do with the flag? The,

Clarissa (00:12:52):

It was upside down.

Wayne (00:12:53):

Oh, was it? Alright, <laugh>,

Clarissa (00:12:55):

We've had to change that then.

Wayne (00:12:56):

Oh yeah.

Clarissa (00:12:58):

Fantastic. Yeah. Oh. But these are all the things that made it so interesting. Oh yeah,

Wayne (00:13:03):

Yeah.

Clarissa (00:13:03):

You know, it wasn't like parcel up your bit, get on with it. Everybody was coming in with this or that, or the idea, et cetera. And that was, that was the community side of it. Yeah,

Mel (00:13:15):

Absolutely. True teamwork.

Clarissa (00:13:16):

Right. That was beyond anything you can ever imagine.

Wayne (00:13:18):

Well, my philosophy was that if people wanted to change something and we add to it, as long as it is better for the tapestry, that was fine. You know, I wasn't precious about design as long as I kept to the main spirit of the piece. Absolutely.

Mel (00:13:32):

And then, so Clarissa, how did you come to hear about this, this project?

Clarissa (00:13:36):

Well, I didn't actually hear about it. I had a phone call from our, then Connor Tar Mac Pollard, who said, you're doing it <laugh>. I said, what am I doing, Mac? And he said, would you consider, you know, doing the coordination for the parishes St. Peter. So I must admit, I was pretty intrigued to know what it was all about, as much as anything. Yeah. Yeah. So yes, I mean I they called a meeting in the committee and publicize the fact that the coordinators from each parish would be there and would anybody who was interested in participating come along, meet their coordinator from the parish. And it started from there. Really? Yeah. Didn't it? Yes, it did. Fortunately, a good part of my team. I can only speak for St. Peter, but the good part of my team came and we are still friends to this day, which is amazing. Picked up maybe one or two after that first meeting. You

Wayne (00:14:38):

Had a strong team,

Clarissa (00:14:39):

Didn't you? We have, yes. I think we have. I did have, yes. I think it's fair to say. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't know about the other parishes. All I know is I said all these years later and we're still all friends. That's so lovely. That's great. You know, we made friends, which again, is part of what it was all about. Yeah. Wow.

Mel (00:14:58):

Yeah. Community spirit,

Wayne (00:14:59):

Right? Yeah, it

Clarissa (00:14:59):

Was, yeah, it really was. Absolutely.

Mel (00:15:02):

And had you, did you have any experience of embroidery previous to this project?

Clarissa (00:15:07):

I'm not by any means. No. It was not a knitter or a crochet or, or particularly interested in anything. But I was introduced to Tapestry for a re a very good reason, and I took to it. But that was purely what you buy in the shops. See where Wanes was so different was that we were allowed to use our own imagination based on the colors. Yeah. But we could interject what we felt. And that was important. Otherwise, you know, it is just right by numbers, by touch three, by number, by numbers or whatever they would call that. I think the only thing that I kind of tried to introduce, which had I believe had not been introduced was mixing threads. Yeah. Because I could see in the granite and the sea that if we took one, you know, the, the wool was very fine and we would use two ordinarily. So if we took one of one color and one of another, we got in the granite, we got the speckly,

Wayne (00:16:19):

You got a visual mix.

Clarissa (00:16:20):

And we got with the sea where the, on the St. Peter's one. Yeah. The boats and everything, which perhaps was not quite right, but once it, they said I could do it. I think it, I think it helped. Didn't,

Wayne (00:16:34):

It worked, it worked very well. It, it's a

Mel (00:16:35):

Very detailed, the color, the coloring in, in the tapestries are phenomenal.

Wayne (00:16:38):

Yes. Important to life. Yes. It's a balance, isn't it? 'cause I, I couldn't make things too complicated.

Clarissa (00:16:43):

Exactly.

Wayne (00:16:44):

So it's, it's accessible to, to everyone. There's stuff like Clarissa mentioned that is really sort of enhanced the whole thing. Absolutely. Like the skies you see, like you were quite right. Yeah. All the skies. So that vivid sky, the same color values, if you look at them, they're all very differently made. Yeah, they

Mel (00:16:59):

Are.

Wayne (00:17:00):

And that gives it a difference. You're saying? It's

Mel (00:17:03):

Yeah. The skies are incredible. I think they're probably one of the things that I find I'm most drawn to because they're, they're just so dramatic mm-hmm <affirmative>. And even if they're a tiny little section of the tapestry. 'cause Some of them are only in the, like, those tiny little squares. Yeah. There's framed images. It really does bring it all together. Yeah. 'cause It's absolutely, but they all very, very different. And

Clarissa (00:17:21):

The continuity going through is spectacular. Yeah. Because, you know, once you latch onto why they're going through and then blue at the end, it's lovely. Very poignant, isn't it?

Mel (00:17:31):

Yeah. The storytelling of the, of the tapestry is phenomenal. Like the way you've put it together, Wayne is, is very, very impressive. Well,

Wayne (00:17:37):

Everyone likes stories, don't they?

Mel (00:17:38):

Well, who doesn't love a story. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. So Clarissa, how did you come to bring these women together? How did you find your, your embroideries?

Clarissa (00:17:47):

Well, from this original meeting that the committee had set up for asking people to come along, if they were interested, Wayne would talk about what was going to happen, what was, it was all about blahdi blah. And, and so people who loved that type of any craft situation they latched onto it immediately. But then as we realized the magnitude of doing it, there were one or two more that, you know, we, by word of mouth, somebody said, you know, from your parish, can you come and give us a hand? Are you interested? And they would come up. So it was fine. But then all over the island, every parish, we were given a sample to stitch a little man. And this really had to unfortunately throw out a few that didn't quite get the, the gist of it. But the majority, I'm sure I'm right in saying you'd have to check, but I think the majority of, I think we were 220 people throughout the parishes.

Clarissa (00:18:59):

Yeah. And we all did this little man as a, as a thing. And submitted that to probably yourself and the coordinators at the time, et cetera. And if we pass the test, we pass the test <laugh>. But the other thing that was put upon us was the fact that the back of the tapestry, which is nobody will ever see, but the back had to be as tidy as the front. As the front. Wow. Now that, as Wayne explained, the canvas was the size it was, and you could have three people working each side. So if that person had to leave the ends that were left dangling, that's the only thing with the coordinator had to be the last to leave, turn it over and thread all these ends, which nearly drove me, Potter <laugh> to make it tithe it. And of course you couldn't leave it because if there was an ends from that particular session and somebody came along and started working again, they could hook up underneath the dangling pieces. Right. So really, I'm not quite sure whether I stitched the front or the back <laugh>, to be honest. <Laugh>

Wayne (00:20:23):

Was a bad idea,

Clarissa (00:20:24):

But we had to do this on the little sampler. We had to make it as neat as possible on the back as well as the front. So, and

Mel (00:20:32):

What was the reason for that? Was there a particular reason why the front had to be as neat as the back?

Clarissa (00:20:37):

So the back as neat as the front,

Wayne (00:20:39):

Just, just to being professional, I think. Yes.

Clarissa (00:20:41):

I was

Wayne (00:20:41):

Just because the top of the power were two, the two main coordinators. Yeah. Marjorie Dartin.

Clarissa (00:20:47):

Well, there was, there was Ma, Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary, sorry. I and they took over as such. And they had one heck of a job on their hands. I mean, they went to every parish and supported us in the work. Wow. Told us if they thought something was wrong and we had to redo it. And then Wayne, the course would come occasionally, et cetera, et cetera. They had a mammoth job. Mm. To keep it all going in like 12 parishes and all these women Yeah. Who thought they, they knew everything like we all did, you know, but we had to take it on board from our head coordinators. That was very important. Yeah. And Ma Moron and Mary Kish were marvelous. Absolutely wonderful. And a little shout out from, from ma Moron's husband who did all the walls. Matt. He did. And he never gets a mention. He did. He

Wayne (00:21:39):

Was,

Mel (00:21:40):

Oh, there we go. Let's mention him. So what did he, what did he do?

Clarissa (00:21:43):

He, well, the other thing that took up sort of an awful lot of time were the said shirt boxes, which sounds ridiculous, but again, just to, it'll get to what I'm trying to say about the wool. We were all told to go and collect shirt boxes because the walls were, the sections were made in the box. And the color range IE from say, shall we say pale yellow, right through to dark yellow. Were graded up so that people could see, visually see this. But what was quite funny was the fact that everybody was going all over the island to get shirt boxes. <Laugh>, in my case man about town. Were at Ken in those days. And it was, don't you dare give to another parish <laugh> those boxes, any boxes you've got off St. Peter's. And somebody would be doing the same with, with Gerald VOing, VOing Keep shirt boxes. So there was behind the scenes that you wouldn't probably have really realized, Wayne, there was quite a little thing going about shirt boxes.

Wayne (00:22:49):

Never knew that.

Clarissa (00:22:50):

But the walls were then all graded in their color. The colors had been decided for the tapestry, but they were all the shades. So we had boxes sky high with every coloring and range of that coloring that you can think of.

Mel (00:23:09):

So a crazy amount of organization Oh, went on

Clarissa (00:23:11):

Mammoth. He worked

Wayne (00:23:12):

Out the number of stitches ultimately didn't he? Seven and a half million stitches. But

Clarissa (00:23:16):

Yeah. Well, I know Anna Marie book going to talk to later. She, she's got the amount of stitches weeded at St. Peter. Oh yeah. Right. She'll tell you that. And we were told to document the hours. Well, it's not, actually wasn't the hours, I think more than the stitches. I don't think the stitches were counted. Surely

Mel (00:23:36):

Not. I think there is, there is

Wayne (00:23:37):

A half million.

Clarissa (00:23:38):

There's a record stitch now. That one I did not know.

Mel (00:23:40):

Yeah. It's in the back of the souvenir guide that can be got, that can be purchased

Clarissa (00:23:45):

30,000

Wayne (00:23:45):

Hours

Mel (00:23:45):

Of work. It's an incredible amount.

Clarissa (00:23:46):

The hours and, and what you can do in an hour, of course, depended on whether you're doing something plain or whether you are doing something intricate. And that would take you a lot longer.

Mel (00:23:55):

And I guess each person had a different rhythm of working. Some people would've been a little bit slower. Some people would faster. Faster.

Clarissa (00:24:01):

Oh, absolutely. And of course the, the more intricate the work, the slower.

Mel (00:24:05):

Absolutely.

Wayne (00:24:05):

Just mentioning to Clarissa about some of the work on the tapestries, how fine it was. And the fact that, because I'd never worked on a tapestry before. Anything like it, I designed as a design without really thinking too hard about how difficult it would be for them to achieve it in the medium they were, you know? Absolutely. Because you're working on a grid, on a canvas. So I'd happily design something, just use your example, the bicycle wheel with the spokes, which is very easy to draw, but very difficult. It's just so hard. Absolutely. There's a lot of things like that. Yeah. You

Clarissa (00:24:41):

Know, and, and equally, for instance, the, I think there's the post office on one of them, the building, if that had not have gone onto the canvas Yeah. The building would be straight. That's what I meant by the major line. The building would be lopsided. Yes, absolutely. Yes. That's right. Yeah. So, you know, Wayne was drawing, we were interpreting. Is that

Wayne (00:25:09):

Good enough work? Yeah, I think so. You were making it happen.

Clarissa (00:25:11):

We were, we were. Had to interpret

Wayne (00:25:13):

Otherwise, because you see a lot of commercial tapestries. They're very sort of angular aren't Oh, absolutely. Pixelated. Really, I guess. Yes. And that's what we wanted to avoid. We wanted to give away that. So I think that's part of their look, they look more natural.

Mel (00:25:28):

Yeah. They are. In terms of transferring a drawing to a tapestry. I think it's incredible how well you've done that.

Wayne (00:25:34):

Yeah. They, yeah.

Clarissa (00:25:35):

There was some, there's some very clever ladies on, on the stitches, no doubt side on this island. But I also think that those of us that didn't have any experience, you know, 'cause of what I call craft people, they've got a big range of things. So those of us that didn't have that experience, what they were saying was taken on board. Or if you had a problem, you'd ask. And back and forth across the canvas, you know, somebody may say, how do I do this? And you would help. That's again, the way it worked. Nobody was sort of isolated to a patch. We all had a share. Right. Well, certainly I can speak for St. Peter's. We all got in there together. And

Mel (00:26:20):

It's really lovely to think about the skills you would've all taught each other

Clarissa (00:26:23):

Exactly.

Mel (00:26:24):

In that process. Yeah. It's lovely to think about

Clarissa (00:26:27):

That. It really, it really was. Especially where things like shadowing. Yeah. In our case, St. Peter, the horse, the shadowing of the horses to get the muscle formation of a horse. I mean, Anne who did that, she was amazing. She loved horses and she knew what she was doing. Incredible. It was incredible. Yeah.

Mel (00:26:47):

And I can also imagine that because you are spending so much time with each other working on these tapestries, that you would've shared lots of personal stories about your own family, memories of the occupation. Well,

Clarissa (00:26:59):

Certainly the ladies. I think we had three ladies in my team that were here during the occupation. But of course, even talking amongst oneself about, as you say, past, I'm not Jersey, I'm a Londoner. So I learned a lot personally. I learned an awful lot because my husband was actually interned in Germany as a, as a young boy. Mm. And he spoke very little. Really. You know, a child doesn't speak from a, these experiences of, of course he shut it out a little bit. So I was quite taken to learn things about what happened. Because what he would've gone through w would been evacuated out of here. Things like that. Yeah. I think the only thing that got me was drawing the slush on one of the canvases when I was drawing. Because that was where he was. I got very emotional. I had a very bad few weeks doing that. Yeah. Because every time I was drawing it, I could only think, imagine him and, and his, his sisters and family. Of course. Being in Za. Yeah.

Mel (00:28:14):

Yeah. That's, and that's again why this tapestry is such a legacy. 'cause It's, we're not just talking about an a piece of art or an installation we're talking about. Absolutely. You know, your memories are stitched into this tapestry.

Clarissa (00:28:26):

Absolutely. And

Mel (00:28:26):

I And your your own experiences. That's

Clarissa (00:28:28):

Right. And some of the ladies, some of the tales they would tell over the stitching was lovely to hear. Even if they weren't here, we'd all, you all learn living here, you all learn so much about the occupation. And we just mar it. It really brought it

Wayne (00:28:47):

Home. Marjorie Dar who, who was the original one original call, she died unfortunately before the project really kicked off. But she appears in, in a deported tapestry. Yeah. Because she was deported as a child. Yes. Like,

Clarissa (00:29:02):

Like

Wayne (00:29:03):

Trout was. Yes. And so I was able to include her. She's a little girl in blue and a bottom. Right. The tapestry. She,

Clarissa (00:29:10):

She was lovely, lovely lady. Yeah. She was inverted.

Mel (00:29:13):

Well, it's incredible that you've been able to Yeah. Cap, you know, capture people that were, that were here, that were, that actually experienced these.

Clarissa (00:29:20):

And I, I think some of the other parishes, some of the ladies who were here, they must have had more, you know, stories to tell. But it's funny, somehow the stories even went round the parishes <laugh> from another canvas. Yeah. You know, it was, it was, it was as if we were 220 women <laugh>. Two women. Well, one man. Yeah. We have a token man, one man <laugh>.

Mel (00:29:46):

And who was that? You

Clarissa (00:29:47):

Know? So who was he?

Mel (00:29:48):

I dunno, who was that? Who was that one? Man?

Clarissa (00:29:50):

I don't name. I can't

Mel (00:29:53):

Remember. Mr. Man.

Clarissa (00:29:54):

It'll be in the, in the list.

Mel (00:29:56):

He'll be in the list somewhere. We'll have to check it out. We'll have to credit him. He's the one with the mister. The Mister. Oh, there we go. So there is one. There is one man,

Clarissa (00:30:03):

One man.

Mel (00:30:05):

We did try and recruit

Clarissa (00:30:06):

More, but the other side was the fact that because it was open house, once the canvases were up and running and everything was organized, people were invited to come in and put their stitch in it to be able to say that they had some, a stitch in these tapestries. So this broadened the 220 of us working on it to a mammoth amount of people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had people coming in. We would be stitching away. They would come again. Aria's got photographs of, of our parish people that came. One particular time that came was, and I'm not going to pronounce it properly, but the Visit Royale, the court came mm-hmm <affirmative>. And of course that is a private situation. So the tapestries on the stage in St. Peter's, I'm at the back in the kitchen waiting type thing. They held their business of the day within the parish hall. And then when the court had finished, I then opened the curtains and the whole lot came and put stitches in St. Peter's. Wow. All in their robes and everything. So that was really lovely. And you know, the bailiff and everything, it was so lovely. Incredible. But we had all sorts of people visiting and, or even just standing and watching.

Mel (00:31:38):

So you had quite a huge job in this, basically managing all of this happening.

Mel (00:31:44):

It's a big job, Clarissa. 

Clarissa (00:31:47):

Not really. I mean, you, you've always got to have somebody who will stay behind and thread the back of the thing, <laugh>. But you know what I mean? Yes. Just a general, generally I had to look after things and, and hopefully make sure once we got quite a lot done, we had to organize how one Stitcher would come because they couldn't stitch that bit next to the bit other bit. Hmm. So you had to have some of some Are you coming on a Monday? Are you coming on a Tuesday? Yes. That all take was taking time.

Mel (00:32:20):

And you're a curator, you're curating this, you're putting it together. Oh, I wouldn't, so it's say that I, I absolutely would say that having looked at, having already done a sec, like kind of like looked at the tapestry from a different angle in terms of a different project

Clarissa (00:32:32):

And keeping the wall

Mel (00:32:34):

Later.

Clarissa (00:32:34):

You know, that was as much as anything. But there again, if I said to the ladies, if you are running out, tell me. Because then I had to, to get hold of, of Maori moron and say, we need this color, that color. And every color was numbered. Mm. So you'd give the number and then the wool would be delivered to keep you going. Absolutely. But we had boxes, as I say, boxes and boxes of wool. Isn't

Wayne (00:32:59):

It? That was amazing when he was sorting the colors out because he worked out how much wool they'd need.

Clarissa (00:33:07):

Matt did Matt did

Wayne (00:33:08):

Matt, by looking at the designs and in the areas that were numbered. Did,

Clarissa (00:33:12):

Yeah. I didn't realize that

Wayne (00:33:13):

There, I dunno. 150, 200 covers or

Clarissa (00:33:17):

Probably. Oh, I dunno.

Wayne (00:33:18):

But he worked out how much wool he needed to order.

Clarissa (00:33:21):

Wow. He was so quietly in the background. Yeah. I never felt he really got any recognition for it, to be honest.

Mel (00:33:26):

Well, this is what we're doing today. We're recognizing his

Clarissa (00:33:29):

Efforts. There we go. But he supported ma as well. Oh, he was brilliant. Because, you know, with losing Marjorie, the other ladies had a big job on their hands. Mm. A really big job on their hands.

Mel (00:33:41):

Well, it's good that we've mentioned him. Not done guys. In terms of the project itself, Clarissa, do you have, is this, is there one memory that really stands out for you?

Clarissa (00:33:51):

I suppose it had to be when they were first put on display. And now this Majesty, who then was of course the Prince of Wales. I think that had to be my little story. I, what happens whether I'm allowed, I don't know whether I'm allowed to,

Mel (00:34:07):

I'm sure

Clarissa (00:34:08):

Do my impersonation of our king.

Mel (00:34:11):

Go ahead. Why not <laugh>?

Clarissa (00:34:13):

But again, we coordinators were the only people who was there to actually speak to his Majesty. The other two ladies who we invited to be in our little group for the parish. Not at, not all the people that worked could do it. It wouldn't been possible. So of course when the king got, or the prince, I should say, I suppose, got to the parishes, St. Peter, we, we were talking about it and this and that and the other. And he said, well, thank you so much. And I said, thank you. Si it's been a, you know, wonderful for you to come and see this. And as he walked away, he turned round and he said, can I do the voice?

Mel (00:34:54):

Absolutely. Go for it.

Clarissa (00:34:55):

Larissa. He turned around and he said, you know, I think this rivals the buyer, <laugh>. And I said, thank you sir. Will you spread the rumor <laugh>? And he said, I will, I will in his lovely voice. But the amazing thing was on another project we did at the opening of the new airport, the Princess Royal came along. And again, I was speaking with her, but I'd asked Ma you wouldn't know this when I asked Ma to come with me as, 'cause we were, it was, it had to be a plus one on my part. So when I'm speaking to the Princess Ryan and I introduced Ma and I said, this is our head coordinator from the occupation, tapestries of Jersey, et cetera. And the Princess Royal said, oh yes, my brother told me about those. Wow. That great. Which just goes to show that. Now what did he say about them? Good or bad? We don't know <laugh>, but I thought it was wonderful that the Princess Royal knew all, and she spoke with Murray Murra and said he, he'd gone back and told her all, or presumably others, all about the tapestry.

Mel (00:36:06):

So he was clearly taken back by the work.

Clarissa (00:36:08):

I was, well, I'm talking what he said to me. He was stunned, you know, and he was so interested in how we did it. Yeah. You know even as you said, how many people worked on it at a time, all that type of thing. Well, it's

Mel (00:36:26):

A phenomenal project, even looking at it 30 years later, obviously. I was, I

Clarissa (00:36:30):

Can't believe that. Well, yes, this year,

Mel (00:36:33):

Oh my goodness. 30Th anniversary. But so I was, I was born in 1991, so I was born the year it you started the tapestry in Trinity. 'cause That was the first panel to start. It was. And even I, I'm obviously of a generation that I didn't contribute to the original tapestry. I did put my stitches in the 2016 13th panel. Right. Which I'm very proud of. Yeah. 'cause I love crafting, I love knitting. I love crochet. I love wool. So I guess for me, seeing this, this, this installation, this art piece, I'm absolutely mind blown at the work that's gone into it. Yeah. And the, even from initial, just the initial meeting of thinking about what to do to commemorate liberation 50. Yeah. All the way to its completion Yeah. Is an incredible amount of work. And I'm fascinated by it. So just a testament to you guys and your, the, the amazing kind of passion that went into this project.

Clarissa (00:37:23):

I think also you've got to realize how we, as shall we say, the workers were stunned at what the museum has turned out the way after all that work. And goodness knows what it must have cost to to set it all up. But when you think that they all went to Hampton Court to be stretched and you know, really professional and look at those lovely showcases and things now

Mel (00:37:53):

Museum. Yeah. Well it has a whole gallery

Clarissa (00:37:55):

Dedicated the whole museum. Yeah. I mean really that is satisfying. Yeah. When we think of the hours we put in. Well exactly. And the frozen dinners that the families had to eat <laugh> because we were at the hall.

Wayne (00:38:07):

That's why people value the participation of it. Because when you end up presenting it properly professionally. Yeah. And it is fortunate, coincidentally, because I happened to be designer for the Jersey Museum. So it was then I was, I ended up designing the space and the showcases to go with it. So I had a really beautiful, I knew exactly the vision I wanted for the space. Yes. Which was

Mel (00:38:31):

Fortuitous. Oh, it's beautiful. The gallery is, as soon as you walk into that space, those tapestries, they are the pride of place of that room. It's a very big room. But they really, they shine in those cases. Absolutely. They are incredibly displayed.

Wayne (00:38:44):

It's the scale of the space. This absolutely aesthetic of the space. I've always thought

Clarissa (00:38:48):

Yeah. Made it all worthwhile to be honest with you. It does.

Mel (00:38:52):

To realize how hundred, how important the process that, that they were displayed in such a way.

Clarissa (00:38:56):

And to know that it's going to be there. Please God for a long time. Well,

Mel (00:39:01):

They've been in there forever for a long time already. I know. They'll hopefully be in there for the next, they haven't faded next 30 years. Sorry,

Clarissa (00:39:06):

What did you say? They

Wayne (00:39:07):

Haven't faded. They haven't

Clarissa (00:39:08):

Faded.

Mel (00:39:09):

No. Well, our conservators, that's their role is to make sure that everything's That's right. Properly lit. That everything's looked after. Yeah. All the, all the cases that they made sure that they are kept in tip top shape. So Absolutely. There's no way that anything bad is going to happen to those tapestries.

Wayne (00:39:25):

You know, the, just before we opened for the first time someone said to me, I won't see who it was. Says, you know, tapestry nice projects, but I don't think anyone would go see it. Really?

Clarissa (00:39:36):

I know we heard that an awful

Wayne (00:39:37):

Lot. I was a bit taken aback. I just sort of <laugh> ignored it really. And so, and the first time it opened at the museum, the gratifying it was. And people were queuing up outside the museum. Incredible.

Mel (00:39:52):

You know, of course they were. This was, this was a huge five year project Yeah. From start in, in terms of the stitching part. 'cause This was a project that started you, the whole thing of putting it together started in the late eighties if I'm not 88.

Wayne (00:40:05):

9 89.

Clarissa (00:40:07):

Yeah.

Mel (00:40:07):

It took a long time to, to really get this thing going. In terms of having to see it on display. I mean it's, we still have lots of groups that go and visit the tapestry. They're absolutely mind blown by the stories. They can learn from it. Yeah. So it's a living, breathing Yeah. Piece of history.

Clarissa (00:40:24):

Well it's a, it's a visual picture of history of the island. I mean, you Yes, you can. It is pick up a book and you can read about it. But I always think something that's visual to look at it, a visual thing sticks.

Wayne (00:40:38):

Yes, it does.

Clarissa (00:40:39):

Unless you, you happen to be madly interested in the history of Jersey, then you'd remember. But the visual picture is so important. And especially for the younger people now.

Mel (00:40:49):

Yes. Because there's a whole new generation of people on the island that would they, they're, they're kind of, they're further removed from the occupation. They're obviously further removed from the, you know, the start of the project. So to have that still on display and to think of other, other ways like recording this podcast, for example. Yes. How can we tell the story of not just the occupation? 'cause You've done that already. Yes. We've done that in the tapestry. Yes. We've done that in various different mediums across Jersey Heritage. But to talk about your involvement from the designing, from the stitching, from your, you know, archiving the whole project. It's, it's so important that people understand the effort, the passion, the time that went into this. Because above all, this was a community project. Yeah, exactly. It's about the people. Yes. And that's what we wanna preserve as well, is your names and your experience and your memories of this project. So thank you very much.

Perry (00:41:44):

Research your family history at the Jersey Archive. Dive into our vast online catalog or visit in person. Our expert staff await to guide you on your journey. We are open Monday to Thursday, nine to one and then two to five Subscribe. Today.

Mel (00:42:01):

During the process of putting this episode together, I had the privilege of meeting Anne-Marie through a community project that celebrates the 30th anniversary of the tapestry. During one of the workshops, Annemarie walked into the parish hall of St. Peter carrying a bag full of precious memories from her time during the Tapestry's creation. Okay. Annemarie, thank you very much for joining us today.

Anne-Marie (00:42:23):

It's a pleasure.

Mel (00:42:24):

So lovely to see you as always. Annemarie, you have done an incredible job at archiving the process of stitching the occupation tapestry panel of St. Peter. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So can you describe for our listeners today what you have collected throughout the years?

Anne-Marie (00:42:42):

Well, I think I've collected just about everything that I could possibly have collected. You know, photographs, statistics, newspaper cuttings programs, magazines with articles.

Mel (00:42:57):

Wow. You've been busy. Hmm. You've been busy <laugh>.

Anne-Marie (00:43:01):

But that was 30 years ago. You know, it's a long time. And all this has just been in a cupboard for 30 years.

Mel (00:43:10):

Well, that's about to change.

Anne-Marie (00:43:11):

Well it did come out occasionally when we had exhibitions, liberation time in St. Peter's Parish Hall. But otherwise, no, it's just been in a cupboard. So it's time. It was all brought out and time it was given to somebody who really appreciates it.

Mel (00:43:29):

Well, we absolutely do. I mean, the, the stuff that you've collected is, is very, very impressive. Not quite impressive. Extremely impressive. So you have here an original drawing. I have. So let's have a look at that. So we have one of Wayne's original drawings. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> on an A three sheet of paper, which is very incredible 'cause it's pretty much spot on to the tapestry. I think the only difference is the train is slightly different on the tapestry. Other than that the train down the bottom is slightly different. But that's incredible. So this, is this an original?

Anne-Marie (00:44:02):

I think so, but how I acquired it, I don't know. <Laugh>

Mel (00:44:07):

And what else do you have with you Anne-Marie? What

Anne-Marie (00:44:09):

Else do I

Mel (00:44:10):

Have? Yeah, let's, let's look at what, let's look at some of the things you have.

Anne-Marie (00:44:13):

I have photographs of all the people that contributed and put a stitch in. I tried to get everybody, especially in St. Peter's Parish. Not the other parishes unfortunately, but I've got newspaper cuttings. Anything I saw in the evening post about the tapestry, I cut it out and put it in one of these

Mel (00:44:36):

Books. And why did you do this? Why did you feel this was in this was important?

Anne-Marie (00:44:41):

I don't know, really. I think when I started, when I start something, I become more and more interested and I have to carry on until I get to the end. Otherwise it's just starting something and putting it away. Mm-Hmm. I think I probably quite like statistics and things like that. And

Mel (00:45:03):

Sounds to me like you should have been an archivist. Well, no,

Anne-Marie (00:45:06):

I keep joking that our house is a little bit like a museum because I keep things like, I've collected stamps, Jersey stamps first day cover from day one. And I collected stamps from about that high, you know, from about five years old when I was school. Wow. So I've got to get rid of some of this stuff in my house, <laugh>, because, you know, I've, I've got old things that were my grandparents. All these celebratory mugs and cups and things that were produced over the years.

Mel (00:45:44):

So you're a true collector

Anne-Marie (00:45:45):

I suppose so. Yes, you absolutely are. Yeah.

Mel (00:45:48):

So Anne-Marie, how did you become involved in the occupation tapestry? How did this come into your life?

Anne-Marie (00:45:53):

Well, it's, Clarissa comes in here because she bumped into my husband, I think in St. Peter's post office one day. And she told Martin my husband what she was doing. And Clarissa said, well, would your wife be interested in helping doing the stitching? And he said, oh yes, I'm sure she will. But I had never been a Stitcher apart from what I learned at school. So it was a matter, I, I said, yes, I'll do it. I had the time to do it and learned how to stitch.

Mel (00:46:29):

So you, you were one of the ladies that did one of these practice Little boy pieces.

Anne-Marie (00:46:33):

Oh, I've got the little boy in

Mel (00:46:34):

Here. Of course you do <laugh>.

Anne-Marie (00:46:36):

I've got the little boy. But it's a matter of finding it. Did you want

Mel (00:46:39):

You can find, yeah, bring it out. Let's have a look at it.

Anne-Marie (00:46:42):

<Laugh>,

Mel (00:46:43):

There he is.

Anne-Marie (00:46:44):

There we're, that was my little boy.

Mel (00:46:48):

Wow. So I'm holding Annemarie's piece at the moment, which is true to form very much the same on the back as it is to the front. Yes. Which was a big, a big kind of requirement in terms of making sure that you guys knew how to do it properly. So did you know from the beginning Anne-Marie, that you wanted to document the process?

Anne-Marie (00:47:09):

Not really. I think I just started and became more and more interested and it just went on until it was finished.

Mel (00:47:19):

So also, ma Anne-Marie, you have a folder here of your samples, but you also have a template of how you would actually stitch. So let's talk about the stitch itself. What's the name of the stitch that's used in this tapestry?

Anne-Marie (00:47:33):

Tent stitch. I think I'm correct in saying that.

Mel (00:47:36):

Yeah. I think we also call it the basket where you

Anne-Marie (00:47:38):

Stitch. That's what it says here. Mm.

Mel (00:47:40):

And can you describe how, how would you, what was, what did you do with the stitch? How did you do it?

Anne-Marie (00:47:46):

Just as you see with the needle here in, across, it was a diagonal stitch,

Mel (00:47:51):

So it's a diagonal 10 stitch.

Anne-Marie (00:47:54):

And if we did anything wrong, <laugh>, we had to unpick it all and do it again.

Mel (00:48:00):

And did that happen often?

Anne-Marie (00:48:03):

No, I don't think so. But occasionally, you know, but as we heard before, it's all had to be neat, both sides and Correct.

Mel (00:48:13):

Did you enjoy doing

Anne-Marie (00:48:14):

Tapestry? Oh yes. Yes. I had the time at the time because my husband was away in Hong Kong. I was here with children who were at school. So I had the time to give up the odd hour or two hours to get on with it.

Mel (00:48:30):

And in terms of the panel, which, do you remember which section you did of the St. Peter's panel?

Anne-Marie (00:48:36):

It was lower right corner. It was the blue body with the hat? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And the little red little child in red next, next to it. Yes.

Mel (00:48:48):

Lovely. It's lovely that you remember. Oh

Anne-Marie (00:48:50):

Yes,

Mel (00:48:51):

Yes. And so you said that you took photographs?

Anne-Marie (00:48:54):

I did, yes.

Mel (00:48:55):

So you photographed all the participants? I

Anne-Marie (00:48:58):

Photographed us working on it. I photographed when it was taken down and rolled up, sent away to Hampton Court, wasn't it? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And it's, it's all here. There's pages and pages of it, I'm afraid.

Mel (00:49:15):

But you've also got photographs of, of it being on display. And you have photographs of the, of our then Prince of Wales visiting?

Anne-Marie (00:49:26):

Yes. Prince Charles. Yes. I'm not sure which book that's in, but it's in one of them. This one I think here is Prince Charles.

Mel (00:49:36):

There he is

Anne-Marie (00:49:37):

Arriving at the museum on May the ninth.

Mel (00:49:40):

So, and another incredible thing that you've done is within all of your albums, not only do you have visual photographs, but you've actually labeled everything. So you, there's a date. Yes. There's, there's labels of what, what it is that you've photographed. So you're a very natural doc. You've basically documented this be beautifully. So let's have a

Anne-Marie (00:50:00):

Look. There's

Mel (00:50:00):

Clarissa, there's Clarissa at Oh, at the front of the jazz museum. Yes. How wonderful. Yeah.

Anne-Marie (00:50:06):

Yes. The only thing I haven't done, 'cause I looked at this book before I left home today. I haven't written people's names by the side,

Mel (00:50:16):

But do you remember everyone's names in this photographs? So that's something you

Anne-Marie (00:50:19):

Can do after. If there's only anybody here that I don't remember, I know Clarissa will remember. Yes.

Mel (00:50:23):

Well, I distinctly remember when you first brought this collection to one of our workshop sessions. What I distinctly remember is that as we are looking through the photographs, what some of these ladies came to see us that day. And I, I was recognizing some of the women from your photographs to them coming into the room. Which is lovely because for me it really gives it a visual context. Because obviously meeting people after the project is one thing. Yes. But to see them in your photographs Yes. Doing the actual work and stitching. It's an incredible thing that you've done Annemarie. And the fact that it was done unprompted, you've done this just because you,

Anne-Marie (00:51:00):

You wanted, I just did it for my own satisfaction. You know, nowadays it's quite different because we don't get the evening post. So I can't cut out cuttings like I used to then because we read the evening post online. Mm-Hmm. But yes, I, I collected just about everything that I possibly could. And they, they brought out telephone cards.

Mel (00:51:24):

They

Anne-Marie (00:51:24):

Did. And I also found today a calendar.

Mel (00:51:28):

What? From the, A calendar From the tapestry.

Anne-Marie (00:51:31):

Yes. I didn't know I had

Mel (00:51:33):

It. I didn't even know that such a thing existed.

Anne-Marie (00:51:35):

Well it does.

Mel (00:51:37):

Well let's have a look at that.

Anne-Marie (00:51:39):

The occupation,

Mel (00:51:40):

The occupation tapes 1998. Wow, that's incredible. And it has all the different, I wonder how they decided which month corresponded to which tapestry. I wonder who designed that? I don't know. Oh, did you design that Wayne? Yeah. No way. Incredible. So Annemarie, you mentioned that this collection, you've never really showed this to anyone before. This is kind of

Anne-Marie (00:52:06):

To people in our parish because every year, what's the lady that does all the floral arrangements? She's part of the church. And she would put on a display, usually every liberation year to display all the St. Peters stuff.

Mel (00:52:23):

So you've ac so some people have seen this collection. She was

Anne-Marie (00:52:26):

One of the ladies that came on that first morning.

Mel (00:52:28):

I think Clarissa mentioned Pat Scaly.

Anne-Marie (00:52:30):

It was Pat. Very artistic lady. Wow.

Mel (00:52:35):

Yes.

Anne-Marie (00:52:35):

And so she used to put on a display and she do used to do floral arrangements in St. Peter's Church. Every liberation.

Mel (00:52:44):

Lovely. So your, so this collection has been seen by some of the parishioners?

Anne-Marie (00:52:48):

Yes. Not all of it. I mean not all the newspaper cuttings and things like that. But

Mel (00:52:53):

You are very kindly going to consider donating this to the archive <laugh>. Well, I think, aren't you Anne-Marie?

Anne-Marie (00:53:00):

I think so because what is the point of putting all this back in my cupboard? It's been there for 30 years.

Mel (00:53:10):

And I think what's wonderful about your collection is that it really brings the project to life. Because it's one thing having a list of names in a book, in a souvenir guide.

Anne-Marie (00:53:18):

Yes.

Mel (00:53:19):

But it's another thing, being able to match a visual to a name, to have someone's face to see them stitching Yes. To see them, yes. Standing in the gallery to see them at the opening evening. Yes. Yes. It's really lovely that you've put a visual to the names of these people in this, in this book that we have. Yes. Yes. So I just wanted to say thank you, Annemarie, for putting this together because I think you've really brought it to life with your collection. And I hope you realize how, so, how this collection of yours will be, will, will kind of show the next however many generations how incredibly important this project is. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And, and all the different people that came together to do it. So I just want you to know that we really value all your effort in keeping these photographs as pristine and labeled and together as you have. Because it's a really lovely collection. I know.

Anne-Marie (00:54:13):

I must have had the time to do it. That's all I can say, you know, 'cause it takes time putting all these things together and absolutely labeling them. And

Mel (00:54:23):

Anne Marie, do you have a specific memory of your time during the occupation tapestry that you, that's really sticks into your mind?

Anne-Marie (00:54:34):

Not really. I just enjoyed all of it. I liked the communication with the other people. We would sit there stitching and chatting. Otherwise I didn't see them, everything about it. But I, I think seeing the whole thing at the end in the tapestry museum was very special because there, it was finished. And I think we, we sort of think about the bio tapestry, which is going to England. And it's always been called the bio tapestry, but it's not a tapestry, it's an embroidery. Mm. I think I'm right, Clarissa. This, this is tapestry. The bio tapestry, as they call it, is an embroidery. It's stitching onto material. But it's so famous that at the time I used to think, I'm sure this will be as well known.

Mel (00:55:37):

I mean, it's, it's an absolute mammoth task having put this together. So who knows, maybe in a few years time this tapestry will be on a global, it could travel one day. I mean, we don't know what the, what the future of this tapestry has. 'cause Obviously we are 30 years later and we're also celebrating this particular year. Fif 80 years of liberation. But this tapestry was put together for 50 years, so mm-hmm <affirmative>. We don't know where it's going to end up or, or what its story could be in however many years time. I mean, did you think that you'd be sitting here recording a podcast 30 years later? No,

Anne-Marie (00:56:12):

I didn't. And I, I find it hard to believe that it was 30 years ago.

Mel (00:56:18):

And how does it feel to revisit this period of your life through your collection? Lovely.

Anne-Marie (00:56:24):

I, I went through the whole lot this morning at home and it's just to refresh my memory of, you know, all the things we did. And it was good fun. It was hard work as well, but it was good fun.

Mel (00:56:40):

And is there an element of your collection that is your favorite?

Anne-Marie (00:56:44):

I don't think so. I think the, the photos taken of one per, of people putting their one stitch or two stitches in was quite important.

Mel (00:56:55):

They're beautiful portraits. Yeah. And I love that you've, you've actually got a very artistic photographic I, Anne-Marie, I know you're gonna disagree, but you'd from,

Anne-Marie (00:57:04):

I

Mel (00:57:04):

Disagree from someone that takes photographs regularly. Yes. I have to say that your photographs, there's, they're a beautiful collection of storytelling. And I love that you've included at the end of a portrait of every single person that contributed regularly to the tapestry and you've put them in the same position with the tapestry. Yes. Yes. For continuity, which I think is really lovely. Yes. That you've managed to basically encapsulate that for everyone. And it's really lovely because then the, some of these women aren't even with us anymore. Right. Well

Anne-Marie (00:57:35):

That's the sad thing that there are quite a few that aren't with us anymore. So it's nice to have the photos of them.

Mel (00:57:42):

Absolutely, yes. So what we'd like to do at the archive is we, there'll be a process of digitizing the images, so mm-hmm. In however long it's gonna take us to do that, eventually the generations that come, we'll be able to look back at your collection and they'll put a face to the name, they'll be able to see. Yes. Annemarie willing, they'll be able to see Clarissa Main, they'll be able to see Wayne Odr, they'll be able to see the faces of the people that contributed to this incredible project. Yeah. So I'd like to say thank you very much, Annemarie for your, it's been a pleasure, your work in putting this together and it's been such a joy to meet you. Yeah. And to meet Wayne and to meet Carissa.

Anne-Marie (00:58:18):

She's been a joy for us to meet you as well, <laugh>, because it's brought it all

Mel (00:58:22):

Back to

Anne-Marie (00:58:23):

Life. <Laugh> in the open again, hasn't it?

Mel (00:58:25):

Well, that's the thing about heritage is that nothing is ever dead. It's always, it's always resurfacing in different ways. And that's the beauty of heritage is that we don't forget anything or anyone or any, you know, we, we keep these stories alive. So to be able to have the privilege to talk to all three of you today mm-hmm. Has been an honor for me. So thank you very much for your time. Well,

Anne-Marie (00:58:45):

Thank you. <Laugh>.

Mel (00:58:48):

Part of Annemarie's collection features a very intricate personalized poem written by Stitcher, Frankie Garrett. We'll now listen to Clarissa recite Frankie's very special poem.

Clarissa (00:59:01):

Now that's, its over. And we all hea a sigh. The wool box is closed and the needles put by the board folded up the diary shut. No more stray ends. And the last knot is cut. The lamps are switched off. The scissors put away. Now it's time for those things that we've all do. One day, well before you all go and catch up on your chores, here's a verse about us all. So listen for yours. We'll start off with Anne. She did horse around making sure four feet were on the ground. She built herself bridges but stayed right on track, just chugging along. Oh, she sure has the knack. And as we worked on gasping for tea, Clarissa the boss was thinking of the sea <laugh>. Ann Marie came and wheeled her way around. But being a lady her own corner, she found blue suited her good, which is just as well since she had two shades, but no one can tell.

Clarissa (01:00:09):

And as we worked on gasping for tea, Clarissa, the boss was going to see then along came Caroline, you'll find her at night, stitching away in colors so bright, you could say that she's the lady with bread. But she used her loaf for the lady in red. And as we worked on gasping for tea, Clarissa, the boss was almost at sea. Frankie had her man, his name was Herman. He was a good chap, a nut down German. She faced up to him, looking him straight in the eye, then moved up in the world to cloud the skies. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was finally at sea. Helen stuck to the point and worked night and day. She delivered the goods in her own special way. She followed the board so she knew what to do. The result of her work baby in blue.

Clarissa (01:01:07):

And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Larissa the boss, Ladi blah. Jessie came and saw us with her new glasses. There was no stopping. Now she weaved around the grasses. She rethread her needle and got on with the task. We made sure she followed the straight and narrow path. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was sailing the sea. Then Lillian came in her uniform way and sold it on without delay. By the end of it all she was seeing green then framed it all. So we'd know where she'd been <laugh>. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa the boss, us were surfing. Sip. Nancy started with her man in blue. She soon had him sorted and needed something new. She advanced to great heights as time went by, a colorful job that left her sky high. And as we worked on gasping 40, Clarissa, the boss was splashing in the sea.

Clarissa (01:02:09):

Looking down a barrel was Norma's task. She triggered off smartly. That girl is fast and then went green with leaves, big and small and ended by putting the tin lid on it all. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was riding the sea. Things started moving as Pat rode by. She handled it all without a sigh. She was sometimes a wash and in the swim, but was guaranteed to put her. Spoke in <laugh>. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was still at sea. Now Peggy strode along her path, deviating slightly around the grass. She went all the way there and back again. An endless road. Never wants to complain. As we worked on gasping for tea, Larissa the boss was up and down as a sea. Well pro proved to all that. She was a gas driving herself hard, a dedicated lass.

Clarissa (01:03:12):

She stitched away to make herself a name, then squared herself up to fit the frame <laugh>. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was tiring of the sea. When Rosemary came, she aimed to shine. Her best foot forward was the sign she shoulder on through thick and thin. She really knows how to put the boot in <laugh>. And as we worked on gasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was fed up with the sea. Now when's Wendy's the girl we drove all up the wall. She had stones to handle both large and small. She's not let the grass grow around her base. She's been a brick and a lady with taste. As we worked on grasping fatigue, Clarissa, the boss was no longer at sea. Now alphabetically, these names have been listed, but you may have noticed that one has been missed. Clarissa's been left to the end of the rhyme. I thought she needed a bit more time.

Clarissa (01:04:17):

Now where do we start and what do we say? She's been there with us from the very first day, having to keep an eye on each one and telling a sweetly it must be undone. <Laugh>, we'll sulk a little, then blame it on Wayne <laugh>. But she kept us going and we bounced back again. She tallied the hours and kept stock of the wall. I'm sure no one wants her telephone bill. It seems a long time since those dear little chaps with their jackets, sweet faces and those blessed caps. But it's all been worth it. And I'm sure you'll agree. If nothing else will go down in history, love Frankie.

Mel (01:05:02):

The occupation tapestry is not just a record of history. It's created its own behind every stitch. A community of islanders who dedicated years of their lives to this incredibly ambitious project. I'd like to say a very special thank you to Wayne Clarissa and to Anne-Marie for making this episode happen. Please head down to the occupation tapestry at the Maritime Museum and spend some time with this incredibly special piece of our island heritage. If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to click on the subscribe button for more.