Life after Liberation

In today’s episode, The Small Island Big Stories host Mel, sits in on a fascinating conversation about Island life after Liberation between Jersey writer & researcher Mark Lamerton & Lucy Layton, Exhibitions Curator at Jersey Heritage. 
Not much has been shared on what life was like for the Island of Jersey after Liberation on 9 May. Jersey had been Occupied for 5 years by German forces and Islanders had endured isolation, tensions between town and country, financial debts and fears of civil unrest. What did the road to recovery really looked like?  Both Lucy and Mark share their research.

Tune into this episode to hear all about Jersey’s long road to recovery. 

Want to find out more?  Come to Jersey Museum and visit our FREE exhibition, Life After Liberation (until end December 2025).    Life After Liberation | Jersey Heritage

Transcript

The Jersey Heritage Podcast: The Small Island, Big Story Sessions
Life after Liberation with Mark Lamerton & Lucy Layton
Perry (00:02):
Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,
Mel (00:05):
The Small Island Big Story Sessions.
Perry (00:09):
You are listening to Mel and Perry.
Mel (00:11):
In today's episode, I sit in on a fascinating conversation about life after liberation between local writer and researcher Mark Lamberton and our very own Lucy Layton exhibitions curator. This conversation is centered around the lead up to liberation and exploring what the road to recovery really looked like for our island. Both Lucy and Mark share their research. Okay. Well, welcome Lucy and Mark to today's episode. It's so lovely to have you both here. Mark, let's start with you. Where did your interest in liberation begin?
Mark (00:47):
Well, yes, thank you, Mel. My interest in, in the Liberation first began in about 1994 when I was going to come back for the celebrations in 95. And I didn't really know much about what went on. So I, I started researching the subject and found that there wasn't any in-depth publications available. So you know, as I say, then I started delving into it and trying to put sort of the history together. Just after the 1995 celebrations, the archive here managed to get Brigadier Snow, who was the commanding officer of Force 1 3 5, the forces that liberated the channel lines, all his documents, his personal documents, which was wonderful for me, but perhaps not for the Jersey Heritage staff <laugh>, because I was pestering them for years and still do. And you know, for some of this information. But as I say, it was wonderful collection. And together with that and you know, newspaper, local newspaper articles and personal recollections helped me build up a, a story, perhaps factual story of what actually did happen between, you know, perhaps the initial planning of the you know, retaking or reoccupation of the Channel Islands in late 1943 up until they went back to a civil administration on August the 24th at midnight, 1945.
Mel (02:19):
In terms of liberation itself, what, what do you find the most interesting about that time?
Mark (02:25):
Well, it's all fascinating really, because there was so much went on. It seems that between the eighth and about the 13th of May seem to be condensed into one day. You know, people's perhaps memories get a bit distorted and things like that. But actually, if you look at the facts and the war diaries of the various units that were involved, you know, there were specific things to do tasks you know, to undertake objectives and things. And I suppose the first part started on the 8th of May in the Royal Square with the Winston Churchill's famous speech. And then the Baylor addressed the crowd afterwards. And then some of the islanders that were gathered there did think, you know, troops were coming that day, but they didn't you know, the Viega was in then. And I think a lot of them ended up watching the unloading of the viega, things like that, which food parcels, you know, greatly received, you know, saved a lot of lives.
Mark (03:23):
And then it wasn't till the following day, 9th of May, following the surrender of onboard HMS Bulldog off Guernsey that the brigadier snow and his negotiating team representatives referred to HMS Beagle and came into St. OBS Bay, you know, and that was a number of I, I suppose accounts at the time say to sign the surrender of Jersey. Actually, it wasn't to sign the surrender of Jersey as such. 'cause That had, the channel lines had already been surrendered on Bulldog. It was to explain the unconditional terms of surrender to the German general in charge over here, so that things were carried out in a, in an effective manner. And as I say, that all went ahead according to plan. And then the token force, and I, and I love the names for the various operations. 'cause Operation Nest Egg, this advanced party was called Operation Omelet.
Mark (04:27):
Really <laugh>. It was, and funny enough, if the plan had to be canceled, the code word was nest egg cracked. Right. Okay. So very fitting then. It was, and you know, I always, it's serious time, but, you know, they some amusing names. I mean, I thought did did a laton write these <laugh>, you know, type of thing. But, but anyhow, fortunately it all, all went to, you know, according to plan, the small token force came ashore just after midday on the 9th of May 20 troops, Lieutenant Colonel Robinson in charge, and also captain Lerock Jerseymen, who was, you know, in, in, in charge of, I call them the, the Jersey contingent who were gonna act as, you know, representative jersey's fighting force and also act as guides for the liberation troops, you know, to various objectives. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So they came ashore. But in the meantime, what had happened as they were going out to, you know, the the German general in the bailiff to HMS Beagle a, a launch from the beagle had come into the harbor landed at the Albert Pier, the end of Albert Pier.
Mark (05:44):
And there was a, a lieutenant surgeon or surgeon lieutenant Ronnie McDonald, I always think, what great name, no relations, <laugh>, I told, and I'm sure he wished he had <laugh> and Lieutenant David Mill came ashore, and there's loads of pictures of them at the top of the Albert Pier. And then, you know, they made their way up to the Harbor Master's office where they hung a union Jack outta the building, you know, much of the delight of the crowds that were there. And anyhow, winding back, I had jumped, jumped a bit there, but winding back to when the omelet of V Party came ashore, then they received a, a rapturous welcome <laugh>, you know, they landed at the New North Key. And again, you know, they're pushing their way through crowds, you know, and greeted generously. But, you know, they also had their, their jobs to do.
Mark (06:44):
And one of those was to raise the union flag up at, on the signal mast at Fort Regions. And so these troops made their way through ordinance yard up the steps, took a right up towards fort regions, and then up the steps to the top. And there are pictures of Colonel Robinson, and you know, these men up at Fort Regions, but Colonel Robinson had a meeting with the German General down at the palm door. So he had to leave Major Lab Brock up there. They, the Germans had till five o'clock to get out of the fort. He commandeered a lorry German lorry. And they drove back down South Hill to the, the palm door to meet with the German General. And again, he was explained the unconditional terms of surrender, and there was demarcation lines set up. And by a certain time that you know, by the end of the day, the troops had to be behind that line. And the only German troops that were allowed to stay within it, where the liaison staff with the tactical headquarters for Force 1, 3 5, that was set up at the Podo Hotel.
Lucy (08:00):
We've got, we've got some wonderful color footage that's come out in the last few years because it was obviously there have been well-known photograph the evening post. Were there, there was a freelance photographer, wasn't there, mark, what was his name? Bob. Bob Lawrence.
Mark (08:12):
Lawrence,
Lucy (08:12):
Yeah. So we did have these black and white images of the events of liberation days. It's always been amazing to be able to see those. And there wasn't black and white film footage, a few clips, but this color film was found about five years, five years ago by the Evans family. It was taken by Dr. Mortem Evans, and it's only about 90 seconds, but there's something about it being in color mm-hmm <affirmative>. Which just all those years just disappear. And you feel like you are there in the crowd. And the, it starts off, it's quite a distant shot looking down on the crowd and the soldiers moving through, and you can see confetti being thrown, and then it's a real close up, and you are right in the crowd. And it's, it's so moving to, to see it, even though it's very familiar mm-hmm. Very familiar story. There's something about seeing this color footage that really, you know, puts you in, in the moment. Mm-Hmm. And, you know, you can really feel that sense of joy and, and, and celebration.
Mark (09:10):
Well, again, I Lucy, I was amazed when I saw that film because there was a lot of, well, I suppose articles that were written in the JP at the time, obviously weren't accompanied by photographs, but having read those newspaper articles and then looking at the film, you could virtually imagine yourself being there. And, you know, there is kinda Robinson coming ashore. There's you know, good shots of the crowds greeting them. And there's also some pictures of Captain Lerock coming up, the new North Key with his, his troops. Yeah,
Lucy (09:42):
Yeah. For someone like you who's researched this period and knows it's so intimately to actually suddenly see these people in color that you've researched all these years, it must have been incredible for you to see that.
Mark (09:53):
Well, but it is, to have actually have images to go with the you know, some of these articles, and again, with the Dixieland film is, is, is great for that. You know, 'cause that also covers a lot at, you know, with the hoisting of the union flag up at the fort region signal mast. But as I say, with, you know, the one at the po door was like an impromptu ceremony. 'cause When Colonel Robinson got back to the PO door to meet the German general, he noticed that the swastika flag is, was flying. And he got one of his men to take it down. And actually interesting on that, it's, the actual flag has got some rusty nail marks in it, swastika flags, and it's because the Germans allegedly nailed it to the flag post to make it more difficult to take down.
Mark (10:45):
That's a story that I, I've heard about it. But as I say, having seen the flag, you can see the nail marks in it. But then the Colonel Robinson asked for the union flag to be brought across from the Harbor Master's office, and it was done. And then this ceremony took place at, at the PO door, which is, you know, recorded in loads of publications. And, and, and actually there are photographs of it you know, with it being hoisted by the the Harbor master and also there's Bill, how of the Jersey paid police on the balcony. And Colonel Robinson stood on the parapet of the balcony saluting, and then afterwards, you know, great you know, singing of the national anthem. And then he addressed the crowd and told them what to expect. But you know, accounts at the time said that Colonel Robinson was overcome by the welcome that he'd, he'd received. And then again, later on in the day, then the, the Germans did leave fought regions. And then the, the flag was Julie hoisted by captain Lerock one, one of his men, and I believe that was Raymond Marcus. And flying proudly once again over St. Heller.
Mel (12:10):
So like, kind of thinking about liberation and afterwards. So what happens after the ninth of, well, it doesn't even, it's not even the ninth, is it, it's the, did you mention it was the 13th that kind of, that that period of, of liberation?
Mark (12:22):
Well, well, yes. Following the 9th of May, obviously things were put in place to get ready for the main body of force 1, 3 5 to arrive on the 12th of May.
Mel (12:32):
Right.
Mark (12:33):
So there were beach obstacles to be cleared, you know, the harbors to be checked over to make sure they weren't mined. And like again, there was an electronic minefield in the entrance to the harbor, which had to be well ensured that that was disconnected. Various things like that to, to make sure that the, the troops were landing safely and not walking into sort of some, some trap. 'cause They was, I suppose, a bit weary of the Germans still. But that was all going on because later in the afternoon, as I say, on on, on the ninth, another 200 members of the omelet V party arrived, which coincided actually with the hoisting of the flag up at Fort Region. And there were a number of jerseymen as well within that force. But these were all sort of like specialists, royal engineers, reconnaissance parties, royal naval personnel and all things like that, that were necessary for making certain parts of the island safe.
Mark (13:36):
Anyhow, so that, that was all going on on the ninth. But on the 10th, there was actually a, a flag hoisting ceremony in the Royal Square. I know now we're onto the third one, but this was you know, there was boys brigade band there. There was a guard of honor, the bailiff was there. He spoke to the crowd from a window in the law library. And Colonel Robinson also, again spoke to the population that had gathered there, just to let them know what was going to happen. So that was basically the 10th, the 11th, obviously, other things were going on again to make the beaches safe and, and the harbor areas. And on the 12th, it was the arrival of the main body of force 1, 3 5. So the liberation fleet, as I call it anchored in St. Bans bay at about 7:00 AM And this coincided with Guernsey as well.
Mark (14:36):
And then at 8:00 AM the troops started coming ashore from the landing ship infantry that were out there in landing craft assault, which then came into the harbor area and landed on the old lifeboat slip. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And, you know, these guys started coming ashore marching up commercial buildings and into the what is now Liberation Square, and then got instructions and March marched off to their objectives. Quite a busy little area that, and there were crowds there watching barriers in place and, and all sorts, and lots of signage you can see for, you know, the troops landing and vehicles. But about 10 30, 10 45, some of the ducks swam ashore from the landing ship tanks out in the bay, which, you know, I don't think at the time people could believe, you know, all of a sudden these were boats coming in. And then I think even the Germans were a bit surprised.
Mark (15:36):
And they started just driving outta the water and making their way along to the I suppose what, which is liberation place now. And they sort of gathered there, and there were about 14 ducks, you know, and they were preloaded with supplies and role engineers, equipment. And actually there was a lot of road signage there that they were using for when the vehicles landed the following day, they could follow them to their objectives or where they were, you know, storing the, the vehicles were being stored or unloaded. So by the end of the day, on the 12th, most of the troops were ashore. And then following that on the Sunday, these massive landing ship tanks beached in St. Obs bay,
Lucy (16:28):
The photographs of those are extraordinary, aren't they? Yeah. And it must have been, you know, the whole sort of arenas at Opens Bay, you can imagine that's happening. So sort of visibly, everyone would've been drawn, fascinated to see what was going on, because they were such such impressive
Mark (16:46):
Ships on, as I say, that's it. And you see a lot of children, you know, it must have been, you know, an eyeopener to them. And, you know, as I say, all of a sudden these things beached, and then the tide receded, and then the, then the front of these vessels dropped, and then all of a sudden, troops, motorcycles, trucks, and all sorts started disembarking. And it was quite, if you look at the photographs, it's quite a setup there, because they had bulldozers and these ward La France tow trucks on the beach as well. So that was in case any of the vehicles got stuck. They were pushed either out the way or, you know, back into, you know, on, onto more firm sand you to keep the disembarkation moving. Mm.
Mark (17:30):
And then, you know, that was the vehicles as shore. And then the following day, again, they beached and there was a lot more supplies were unloaded. Some of the ducks were used then to unload the stores. And you know, once that, that was the first lift of bringing the supplies in that the vessels and the, the landing ship invent infantries were used to take the first lot of German POWs back to the uk. So that was, you know, it was a, a busy period of time between the eighth and say the 14th. And in that time, you know, there was another state sitting because with force 1, 3 5, there was a civil affairs group that were helping civil administration get back on their feet. And it was all part of a 90 day plan for reorganization and rehabilitation of the channel islands, which went to plan, went to the 90 days like I said. And on the midnight on the 24th, the 4th of August, the civil administration was reintroduced to the islands. And the following day, Jersey and Guernsey had a governor,
Mel (18:43):
Had a governor,
Mark (18:44):
Governor <laugh> governor.
Mel (18:47):
So what I, what I find quite fascinating is, in, in this period of, of being occupied for such a long time, and then, you know, things trying to go back to normal, what does that look like? So Lucy, could you shed some light on, on what, what then life starts to look like after liberation?
Lucy (19:06):
But I think there was a very long road to recovery, and I've got really interested in the story, and it's been great talking to Mark about it, because I think a lot of us are very familiar with the sort of the occupation story, but it tends to end liberation and the joy of freedom and, you know, oh, finally those five long years are over, but actually what happens next? You just, you can't just return to normal after an experience like that. So there were all kinds of, you know, practical and emotional things to deal with both as an island and for families on a personal level as well. So it's absolutely fascinating. I mean, I think from a practical thing, one of the things I know you've talked about in your bookmark is, is, is money, because everyone's been dealing in German currency during the occupation. And, and I'm sure once you, that people liberated, I'm sure there were very keen to get rid of this German re marks, which actually had completely lost their value as well at the end of the war. So the British government sets a very fair exchange rate, quite a generous exchange rate, so people could exchange their rech marks. But just even the practicalities of of doing that, bringing in, was it a million pounds of sterling or something? They, but yes. Yeah, they brought in and then had to distribute through the banks.
Mark (20:21):
And, and again, it just shows you all the different units that were involved with Force 1, 3 5, because, you know, there was the Pay Corps and there were lorries of bullion that came ashore from these LSTs, both in Jersey and Guernsey. And with postal orders, everything, you know, again, to set up post offers the banks,
Lucy (20:38):
Which again, was really important. 'cause People hadn't had any proper communications apart from Red Cross letters. A few, is it 14, 16 words Yes. Of news people could exchange, or perhaps it was 25. But, you know, very, very, very brief messages. And you know, so it was so important to get the postal, not service, but post postal operations up. And there were, think there were free postcards weren't there, but they, so people could communicate with family.
Mark (21:03):
There were, those were pre-printed and brought over actually. And they were put I think into circulation on the 14th to send to, to relatives in the uk just to you know, have, have that first contact again. You know, and could put in them really what they wanted as opposed to, you know, red Cross letters were censored. Mm.
Lucy (21:24):
Yes. I noticed when I was looking through the evening post that there was a whole series of birth marriages and death notices, but sometimes going back two or three years, 'cause during the occupation years, people didn't have a chance to share that kind of important family news. So there was a lot of sort of catching up on, on that kind of, that kind of information.
Mark (21:44):
There was, I suppose, some concern that how people had fed in the uk so they wanted to know. And you know, there was a lot, a lot. And there was frustration at the time of when evacuees were coming home, the people that had been deported and all things like that. 'cause Then that starts hitting the headlines after, I suppose the, some of the joy of liberation had started to subside and that people wanted, you know, to know about their relatives.
Lucy (22:11):
And there's definite frustration felt, isn't there? There were servicemen who wanted to get back to the island, wanted to get back home and see friends and family. There were people who'd evacuated who were desperate to get back. They wanted to, you know, get home, be reunited with people, check on their properties, which they'd left in great haste back in 1940. It's interesting though, recently we came across, and I think this is always fascinating, that 80 years after liberation was still finding new material. Recently we came across a BBC broadcast that was made by the bailiff in early June, 1945. And it's really a message to channel island servicemen and evacuees who are really keen to get home and just managing their expectations about, about how quickly that can happen on a practical level, because the infrastructure is in place. Lots of homes have been damaged or ransacked, you know, they need to be able to accommodate people.
Lucy (23:09):
The food supply chain needs to be put into place. Now, there's all kinds of practical things. So he's really managing expectations about how quickly that can all happen. Reassuring people that they're doing their very best. But, you know, people can't just come flooding home. They need to manage that process. And they were prioritizing, weren't they, people with particular skills that, that, that might be able to come back and help in that recovery process. I noticed in the broadcast there was this really poignant line that qosh made about You will find us very changed. And not just the, all the sort of practical, you know, the germ fortifications that sprung up everywhere, the, the ransacking of like the hotels and buildings and things. So all that sort of stuff. But he, he was just making people who had left the iron had to wear that.
Lucy (24:02):
The people who'd stayed hadn't had any access to any popular culture. You know, they hadn't seen any, any films read any recent books. They hadn't, they hadn't, they might have listened to the radio secretly to hear the BBC news, but, you know, they probably weren't aware all the five years of popular songs. And so, you know, people had lived a very claustrophobic, sheltered life away from all of that. And also things like wages, that was really fascinating to read about how there's this enormous disparity wages in Jersey had fallen so far behind the UK that when they did start bringing in supplies and goods people, lots of people couldn't afford to buy them. 'cause Their wages were so beyond the level in the uk. So there was a kind of major reset of, of wages, and that was had to be managed as well. And then there were sort of deportees who through no fault of their phone, of their own had been removed from the island forcibly in 1942.
Lucy (25:01):
And, you know, they lost their, their jobs. So I think the the authorities did decide in the end, didn't they, that I think with state's employees, if they'd been deported, that they were paid half wages for that period. But there also, the people who returned and found that, you know, their jobs had long gone because mm-hmm <affirmative>. They hadn't been on the island. So there was all kinds of discontent and grievances and, you know, some people feeling that, well, we stayed and, you know, and you left the island. But of course, lots of the people left the island. They had, you know, very difficult experiences in the uk. They were separated from families. They didn't, weren't able to communicate, they didn't have news. Some of them were, you know, involved in, in, in, in blitz situations. They might've been bombed outta their home. And I dunno whether Mark, I mean, you, your, your family story's quite interesting because you had one parent from a family who, who stayed and one parent from a family who evacuated and they had very different experiences.
Mark (26:01):
Well, yes. And it's funny, I only came across this sort of like, animosity between stay behinds and evacuees over, well, recently and I suppose in the last few years. And then when I'd, I'd always meant to put my family's wartime experiences you know, put pen to paper, so to speak. But I'd always been preoccupied with I say force 1, 3, 5, but a couple of years back I did. And what transpired was my mother was evacuated with my grandmother and say my mother's two siblings. And, and they went to Bournemouth and my grandfather was supposed to follow on. And actually he had to cut the cables, the submarine cable at Flicker Bay and Oh wow. Which he did do. And I can always remember him saying that he'd carried the piece of cable up to the end of St.
Mark (26:54):
Catherine's breakwater and threw it into the sea. And then he, he was trapped here. There was a, an a launch sent to pick him up. It only got as far as Guernsey, it was to pick up his counterpart in Guernsey and then come on to Jersey to collect him. It only got as far as Guernsey and the Germans were landing at the airport. So the launch headed back to the uk and actually on the way back, the escorts Blenheim were shot down that were sent to escort the launch. But the launch got back safely. And actually it was a Jersey man that was in command of that launch. And reading the letter that he wrote to my grandfather's counterpart Guernsey's wife, that after the war that what, what he'd wanted, he'd hoped to come onto Jersey because he needed to pick up some of his wife's clothing <laugh> that he left behind.
Mark (27:50):
So I, I dunno if he got his ear chewed when he got got back to Plymouth. But there was a lot of other things that went on, which I most probably thought what he could do with her clothing type of thing. But you know, anyhow, it was lovely to see this letter. So anyhow, my grandfather was trapped in, in Jersey. Yes, he did some sort of clandestine things. He even had a, a radio Dr. Mckinstry at Lavoe Convalescent home. They had a radio there. And, 'cause he was, he'd been in the Royal engineers during the First World War and, and a lineman for the GPO here. You know, he was, you know, practically with building radios and things. He was good. Yeah. Very skilled man. Put this transmitter together and started transmitting to the, to the UK near, you know, later on in the war he had tried to escape, but because of his job was told that, you know, they needed him in, in Jersey, you know, to function for the you know, local population, telephone lines and things.
Mark (28:51):
So, so he did stand, there's a few other stories of got that he was involved with like a lot of other Channel Islanders were who, and they never used to, you know, didn't share them as such. So he was stuck here. His wife and his children were in Bournemouth. And then not long after they got there, there was a bombing raid. Oh, no. And then the shop next door to the, they ran upstairs flat in the house next door. It was bombed. The the o occupants of the shop and flat next door were killed, and they were rescued from this building. And interestingly, I've, I've got a copy of the newspaper, which shows the ruins of the house and the window that they were rescued from. Wow. You know, and, and things like that. So they were lucky, had the bomb being a little to the right.
Mel (29:43):
So they survived. They, they were fine. Yeah.
Mark (29:45):
So yes, it wasn't all, you know life through rose color spectacles, obviously, when you were evacuated, you know, on the other hand, my father was in, in Jersey, I was still at school, you know, how did he spend his time? And I've got a number of pictures that he drew. I didn't get those skills from him mind. You wouldn't know what they were. And he, he did wood woodcarving and his brothers, and that they made models of ships and, you know, all all things like that. But then post immediately, post liberation, they were some of the first to join up. And him and his school, chum Gordon Philio, signed on the dotted line. And then before they knew it, they were in Europe Italy. And then they ended up in Palestine. Wow. When, when they had the troubles there before coming back the Channel islands.
Mel (30:37):
That's really interesting. You
Lucy (30:38):
Can see how, you know, young men or young boy boys, they were really, I think her father was 13, wasn't he, when the, the Germans arrived. So you imagine spending their sort of formative year, teenage years in the island. Absolutely. They would've just been desperate to get off the island mm-hmm. And see a bit of the world and do their bit for the war effort. And, you know, they would've felt so excluded from everything that was going on, didn't they? So you can, you can see how yeah,
Mel (31:01):
There must, how would've
Lucy (31:02):
Keen to go, but it's interesting how you've got all these people who are really desperate to get back home and other people who've been stuck on the island and desperate to leave,
Mel (31:09):
Really
Lucy (31:09):
Keen to go. And there was a whole flurry of some military weddings, wasn't there? Yeah. I know there were people, you know, young women who met liberating soldiers. And I mean, I, there's a, a photograph I've seen of July, 1945 mm-hmm <affirmative>. So obviously a whirlwind romance. And there was a guard of honor with force 1, 3 5 troops and some local young woman getting married and then often live in the uk. So there's this whole, you know, movement of, of, of people immediately post liberation.
Mel (31:38):
Yeah. A real mix of experiences. I could imagine. Because the other thing that I was, that I was thinking about once I had a look at some of the, the themes we were gonna talk about today is, you know, what, what then happens to the people that collaborated in Jersey during the occupation? What happens to them post liberation? There must have been a real kind of like conflict between the people that followed rules and people that kind of did what they could to, to survive, but obviously at the cost of, of many kind of bad things.
Lucy (32:08):
Yeah. I mean, I think there were a few instance, weren't there immediately fallen liberation, I think you've written about this, haven't you? You know, perhaps some young women kind of being you know, attacked in the street and other people having an in to intervene. I mean, there was a notorious lady oh, who, whose name escaped him at the moment. Mrs. Boda. Mrs. Boda. Yeah. Who actually, she she actually sort of turned herself into the police, didn't she? Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. For her own safety, because she was, because
Mel (32:34):
She was that, that fearful of what was going on in the community
Lucy (32:37):
At that. Yeah. There were, you know, certain, you know, people who were notorious for having been over friendly with the Germans. And yeah. They suddenly obviously felt very vulnerable and that they, some people were actually, they left the island, didn't they? She being one of them, I think. Well, well,
Mark (32:54):
Well, yes. I, I think it was a while before she left 'cause she was asked to be kept in Newgate Street Prison. And yes, there were some others. And yes, there were some other young ladies that fell in love with young Germans. You know, they didn't, neither had political views, but they were just, it's
Mel (33:18):
Just the way things are. You know, people fall
Mark (33:20):
In love, right? Yeah. But no, there's a well-documented one where someone was chased down, was it mul Caster Street and gonna be thrown in, in the harbor and, but a member of the public stepped in all things like that. And there's various cartoons that you see and major ryot <laugh>, as I say, quite like his cartoons that he drew. But there's one of a lady pushing a pram bedecked in swastikas waving a flag. Wow. And it's got May the eighth and then May the ninth. It's covered in Union Jacks, and she's waving a union check <laugh>. But the things like that. But it's just, you know, signs of the times. And, and there's other ones I mean his, I suppose cartoons, if, if you've ever looked at them, are, I suppose aimed at the, you know, the states at the time and what went on, because the famous one of his is at 1940 when the, you know, evacuations were going on.
Mark (34:26):
And the UK said that they weren't going to defend the island. There's Britannia running away from Jersey, throwing her spear and helmet and things like that to one side. And actually the chain mail that's it is is flying through the air and it's in the shape of a map of jersey <laugh>, you know, just deserting the island. So feelings were high about that then, you know as again, they were at liberation. Some of it might have been jealousy. Mm. You know, especially about, I suppose food supplies, you know, and again, if you were able to grow your own, but if you lived in a flattened town, you weren't. Yeah.
Lucy (35:08):
There was a lot of tension, wasn't there, between town residents and those in the country and perceived injustices mm-hmm <affirmative>. I think that there was a feeling that, you know, farmers and country folk had had it much easier because, you know, they just had access to, to more food than the townsfolk. And there's lots of simmering, you know, tensions and grievances and, I mean, actually there was real concern wasn't there on the party authorities about civil unrest mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think part of, you know, force 1, 3 5, part of their mission was to, you know, come in and create a, you know, of, of a very structure in which the island, you know, needed to get back on its feet, but to sort of, there was a of down campaign to calm down and those rumors, and though, I mean, the JP at the time is just full of anonymous letters, sort of denouncing people.
Lucy (36:02):
And there was a group called the Jersey Loyalists who very much campaigned for you know, trials of, of people accused of collaboration. But there was, there wasn't any formal investigations. I think there were investigations going on behind the scenes by the authorities, by the British government, because I think, you know, they, they came in wanting, needing to know what had been happening in the island and investigating the situation. But I think there was very much a feeling that it wouldn't be helpful, and whether that was because we're such a small community, that it might just cause a lot of, you know, upset and, and, and, and unrest. So it was all very much sort of dampen down and, right, come on, let's just get on with it and get back to normal as quickly as possible. But the flip side of not having, you know, a, a war trial or proper investigations is that those rumors and hearsay and gossip
Mel (37:00):
Go on faster.
Lucy (37:00):
They still for a long time. Right. Yeah, of course. And, you know, there were families who, you know, didn't speak for years and years because they, you know, felt either wanna benefited for in this way or someone else had done something, had something. Yeah. And I mean Andrew Gilson has published a book recently looking at agriculture in Jersey during the occupation years. And I think with all the sort of research he has done, he has concluded that actually there wasn't any sort of whole scale profiteering. Perhaps people made a little bit of money here and there selling a bit of excess milk, but also there was a lot of a lot of the farmers were actually giving food to slave workers who had escaped and knocked on farm doors, you know, desperate for bread or, you know, a bit of milk. So there was a lot of that kind of stuff going on. But there was a lot of money actually made after liberation by farmers. The purity of the jersey breed had been retained during the occupation. And so actually a lot of cattle was being exported after the war. And so there was a lot of money to be made sort of post liberation. But actually he sort of concluded that there wasn't any sort of mass profiteering going on within the island during the occupation.
Mel (38:18):
Research your family history at the Jersey Archive, dive into our vast online catalog or visit in person, our expert staff wait to guide you on your journey. We're open Monday to Thursday, nine till one, then Friday, two till five. Subscribe today. And wasn't there a problem with there was a crop threat with the Colorado beetle? Yeah,
Lucy (38:46):
No, that was something extraordinary that I, I discovered when we were looking at this period because I just, you know, before the war, the Jersey Royal Potato was one of the island's, great export crops, brought so much money to the island, brought a lot of wealth to the farming community. I just assumed, you know, as soon as the island was liberated, that would be the focus, getting that crop back and, and, you know, making money from exports. But in fact the Colorado beetle, which had always, well since the sort of turn of the century had been a, a threat to the island potato crop. And had been very, very carefully monitored pre-war during the occupation actually took hold, it became quite invasive. And and so the UK refused to accept any exports of Jersey Royals for a two year period.
Lucy (39:36):
So there was an intensive sort of chemical treatment of, of, of, of the land. They needed to eradicate it. But it did mean that for that two year period that, you know, potential money that could have been made from exporting Jersey royals just wasn't available to the island. So that really would've sort of held back the economic development. But then of course, once they did start being able to export potatoes, the the finances, the, the export rates went right up. But there was a lot of work to do getting back to normality with, with the agriculture exports. 'cause Tomatoes was the other big export crop, but there was a lot of work done to repair glass houses, which had been damaged during the occupation. And it's a very labor intensive crop to grow as well. So even outdoor tomatoes, there was a labor shortage.
Lucy (40:25):
There's some great photographs in the JP archive of Welsh workers who were brought in to to help with the tomato harvest. And there's a really nice interview. I think they, this might have been year or two after liberation, but they were being interviewed by JP Reporter and they were very much like, oh, we were very keen to come and help do our bit to get the island back on its feet. So Oh, that's lovely. It really was all sort of, you know, pulling together to, to return the island to its former kind of economic prosperity.
Mel (40:54):
Yeah. I mean, I think thinking about all these kind of, all the, the things that we've talked about today, it would've been quite a, obviously a really tricky time, but also kind of, you know, 'cause it was, was it about two years that the island took to kind of start seeing some sort of progress? Do we, when do we know when we start? Well,
Lucy (41:12):
I mean, they started promoting the island. Obviously tourism was the other big industry pre-war. So even in 1946, they were encouraging people back to the island. The priority immediately post liberation was in restoring the hotels because a lot of those had been taken over by the Germans and they'd been stripped of, particularly towards the end of the war. You know, they were in very poor condition. They'd been stripped of all their, you know, bed linen and crockery and that had all dispersed. So, I mean, the island needed to invest a lot in its hotels and guest houses in order to bring people back to the island. But I think and people did start coming back in 1946, but I think I've, I've seen a few references in the JP to visit a complaint saying that, you know, the island isn't ready yet.
Lucy (42:07):
And you can imagine you know, there would still have been a lot of evidence of the occupation all around. I mean, obviously the fortifications, it was a long time before those were all kind of made safe. Obviously they're, you know they're very much part of the, the landscape today, but they would've been, they've all sort of blended in, I suppose a bit more was it would've been very brutally raw that impact on the, on, on the beauty of the coastal landscape in particular. And I think obviously people who were able to afford to go on holiday in 1946 were probably expecting a level of luxury that the island just couldn't, couldn't offer properly. So I think probably they sort of went in to try and track the visitors, but weren't quite ready. I mean, it's interesting that things like the the German Underground hospital was already opening to visitors in, I think open for Liberation Day 1946. And I dunno whether that was well
Mel (43:08):
For people to just go
Lucy (43:09):
And visit, to go and visit. And I dunno whether that was for Islanders for locals to see what had been been going on so bizarre or whether it was also targeted at, at, at tourists, you might know. Yeah.
Mark (43:20):
Was, I say it was most probably, you know, a bit of both. But you know, I suppose a lots of people post liberation thought, oh, I wonder what had been going on in there. And were quite curious
Lucy (43:32):
Because there were lot of rumors weren't there about No, they were, what, what, what it was for the you know, and quite lud rumors weren't there. So I think there was a fascination with going to see what had really been going on. Mm-Hmm.
Mel (43:42):
Yeah. I guess 'cause locals wouldn't have really known what was happening there. Right. So, but that's just seems really bizarre that they would just open it that quickly.
Lucy (43:50):
Yeah, I mean, it is interesting and I think that whole topic of the occupation as a tourist plus attraction is, is really interesting. And how that has developed over the years. I mean, I, I was really struck as you are with the, the fact that the underground hospital hospital was open so quickly mm-hmm <affirmative>. To members of the public. But, you know, it'd be fascinating to look in, in detail. I know you've got quite a good collection, haven't you, of of sort of tourist materials from the various bunkers. Some that were opened sort of privately as museums and others that the Channel Island Occupation Society have, have obviously been very instrumental over the years in opening up those bunkers as well.
Mark (44:37):
Yeah. Well that I, I suppose, you know, there's a history on its own. Some of the occupation museums that have been and gone, you know, now obviously there's only Jersey War tunnels and the Channel Islands Military Museum down at st one's you know, that cover these you know, periods. But you know, there were quite a number years ago, you know, like at the Strawberry Farm and Paul Claudier along the Esplanade and, you know, Richard Maine had some Peter's bunker before. Damien Horne then opened a museum there, which again, declining in tourists. You know, you can't have, you've got the channel line's military museum down the, down at St. W's couldn't really have two running, you know, at the same time. 'cause The tourist demand has diminished.
Lucy (45:32):
It's interesting, the, that there always was that very strong interest in finding out about the occupation, but also what, who, who you remember and how you interpret those buildings with, you know, a very difficult history. You know, lots of force workers, slave workers involved in their construction. And I know at Le Hook be with the the bunker there. It was turned into a memorial or has been turned into memorial to the slave workers. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. So a very different approach. And I think over the years, I mean, our fifth, the 50th anniversary of liberation 1995 felt like a real sort of turning point. But the, the occupation tapestry was created obviously the, the Philip Jackson sculpture and Liberation Square prince Charles, as he was at the time, came over and it opened that in 1995. But subsequently, there was a loss of this focus kind of shifted to stories of of the slave workers, the political prisoners, the Jersey 21, as sort of a different narrative has emerged.
Lucy (46:39):
So it's interesting itself just seeing how the way we remember the occupation and liberation have shifted over generations. And I think that's part of the kind of healing process, isn't it, that the first generation probably want to just forget about a very traumatic part of their lives and get back to normal as long as possible. And then it takes a while for subsequent generations to want to, you know, remember and cover, uncover all the details and, and, and keep all this material. And then, you know, that will be subject to revision and people reinterpreting it over the, over the generations.
Mark (47:19):
I suppose that's what, you know, as I say, happened with me, one with finding more out about liberation. And again, you know, during that course of research, finding other things and like evacuees and stay behinds and then wanting to, oh, look at that, that involved my parents. I want to know more about
Lucy (47:40):
That. Yeah. 'cause You hadn't been aware of that animosity between those two and,
Mark (47:43):
And some of those other aspects. And again, it's, you know, you think, oh, well, people used to ask, oh, well, where's memorials for, you know occupation, stroke, liberation? And you know, there weren't that many. And, and I think people have realized, and you know, it's for future generations, it's okay while the generations or the people that have living memories of that period can relay stories better. It'll be forgotten in years to come. You know, again, you, you sometimes stumble. I, I've stumbled a across memorials without thing. Oh, I, I wonder when that was picked up or put up rather. And then go and have a look, take a photo. Now we've all got phones at, take pictures and you know, keep that for my, you know, little archive.
Lucy (48:30):
Yeah. It's interesting that someone like Jean McLaughlin has done a lot to capture memories of evacuees. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And then also her particular story her father fought in was fighting in Burma, wasn't he? Yes, I think so. Just because Jersey was liberated, we have to remember that was only victory in Europe. And there was obviously still fighting going on. And and she, in particular, I think her, she had evacuated as a small child with a mother to the uk and they chose not to come back to Jersey straight away. They waited in the UK until her father, till the war was over. And her father had come back home and they, they traveled back together. But I think she felt that their story hadn't been acknowledged, really, the Evacuee story, this is going back for 20 years. So, you know, she collected a lot of those stories together and, and, and really wanted to make people aware that actually these people hadn't just fled their, I fled the island and left people to it.
Lucy (49:29):
They actually had been a really hard decision to make. And as a consequence, families were separated and there were, you know, Jerseymen who'd signed up and were and were fighting as part of the war raft, and I'm sure Jersey women as well, who, you know, contributing in various ways. So just because people weren't in the island, they were still part of that story of occupation and liberation, whether they were they stayed in the island, whether they were evacuated, whether they were deported, they all had very different experiences. And that's part of the story is there isn't one occupation experience people, every family experience that wartime period in different way. And the fallout for each family was very different as well. I mean, some people were very lucky and they didn't lose any family members. They were reunited, their homes were still standing. And perhaps they did return to normality fairly quickly. But for other families, you know, they had experienced very, very traumatic things. And often families, you know, that that trauma lasted a long time and it took a long time to recover, whether it was, you know, economically or emotionally from their experiences.
Mark (50:38):
And again, at the time of, you know, 1940, as you say there, Lucy, a lot of people didn't know what to expect, you know, to be occupied. The Germans were just a few miles across the water. And so what do you do? You're looking after your children, take them away to safety or your, like you said, your husband is in the armed forces, so you want to be near him. And so, you know, hopefully then he could see his children unless he was posted overseas. And again, you know, that well, I suppose anxiety must have been the same for people that stayed. What do we expect? We see these stories of you know, women being raped you know, civilians being shot by the, by the Germans. And so you think that's gonna happen.
Lucy (51:24):
Yeah. It was a very difficult decision and a very short window where you had to decide whether to stay or go. Yeah.
Mark (51:29):
Yeah. So it must have been really difficult at the time. And I think in Guernsey, there were a lot more children that were sent away on their own evacuated and had to leave parents behind, which must have been devastating, you know, especially, you know, five years you know, something like that. So yeah, it was, it must have been a terrible decision to make at that time. And in 1940, because yeah, I'm
Lucy (51:57):
Know what was gonna happen. I'm, I'm sure there was some people who were, 'cause the war went out for so long that regretted making the decision to stay. 'cause They were separated from family. And I'm sure there were people who left. And actually in hindsight think that, you know, perhaps they should have stayed. Yeah. Depending on their situation and what happened to them.
Mark (52:13):
Well, again, and you know, you're right. What you say there that, you know, perhaps they English born that were deported, thought I wish I had evacuated.
Lucy (52:23):
And there were one or two servicemen who came back to visit family in the summer of 1940 and got trapped here. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And I know there was one, I saw his name escapes me, but he handed himself in and was in a, an internment camp here and there were sent to the continent and tragically died. And it was just, you know, he came back to visit his family on leave and just by, you know, bad luck was here when the Germans invaded. So you know, terrible tragedies, little personal stories like that, you just think, oh, for a matter of a few days, he Yeah. Might have survived.
Mel (52:58):
I think what's, what I find the most interesting is that obviously life after liberation, obviously the, the themes we've talked about in today's episode are really interesting. But there's a lot more meat to kind of go into this kind of story. And obviously lots of different people had a lot, they had a, there's a very mix, there was a massive mix of experience. So I think what will be interesting is to see the kind of research that comes out of looking into these themes with a little bit more detail and to kind of really give that time period a bit more kind of color in terms of experience and and that road to recovery.
Lucy (53:32):
Yeah. And, and acknowledging that it was actually a very long road to recovery. And we haven't even touched upon political reform. Yeah, there were, there was, you know, a really strong feeling that the island needed to, to be reformed because it was governed by the same people before, during, and after liberation. There was no there were no kind of working people in the States because it was a it wasn't a paid position. So, you know, people both within the island, the Jersey Democratic movement, but also people who had left the island and seen a, you know, a more democratic system of government in the uk. They came back and there were from both sides calls for reform. And within a few years the states had been reformed. Directors and dur rats on positions like that had been removed. And there were, there were more deputies, a new position of senator. And, you know, that was the start of a, a more sort of democratic representative form of government.
Mel (54:33):
Well, thank you so much for your time today, mark and Lucy. It's been a fascinating chat. And yeah, thank you. If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to click on the subscribe button for more.