Caroline Trachy – Paving the way for Women’s Rights

Have you ever wondered who changed women's rights to stand for election in Jersey? In our latest episode of our ‘Small Island, Big Story Sessions’ podcast, we explore the life of Caroline Trachy, a pioneering campaigner in the quest for equality. 

You can also discover more about Caroline Trachy on our website.  

Come and visit our exhibition – ‘La Tèrr’rie d’Jèrri – d’s histouaithes dé not’ Île / Being Jersey – stories of our Island‘   at the Jersey Museum which tells the story of Jersey’s unique and complex history, including the story of women's rights – this exhibition really does have something for everyone. It’s free to visit and open all year round.  You can also read about Caroline Trachy's life on our website.

Are you a Jersey heritage Member?
If not head to our website and sign up today. Your Membership unlocks the doors to all our sites, offers special discounts and benefits, but above all else it supports the important work that Jersey Heritage does to preserve and share our rich Island story. 

Transcript

Jersey Heritage Podcast; Small Island, Big Story Sessions
Caroline Trachy – Paving the way for Women’s Rights 
Perry (00:02):
Welcome to the Jersey Heritage Podcast,
Mel (00:05):
The Small Island Big Story Sessions.
Perry (00:08):
You are listening to Mel and Perry. 

In today's episode, we're going to be exploring the life of Caroline Trashy, the leader of the Jersey Women's Political Union in 1922. Caroline was denied standing for Deputy in Jersey's election because she was a woman.
Mel (00:25):
Today we speak to Stuart Nicholle, our senior archivist who'll be sharing Caroline's fascinating story.
Welcome Stuart to the podcast. It's nice to have you.
Stuart (00:33):
Thank you very much. Very nice to be here.
Mel (00:35):
So, let's set the scene for Caroline trashy. She wasn't actually born in Jersey, so let's kind of go back to the beginning of her story.
Stuart (00:42):
Yeah. So she was born in Bristol back in 1868. Apart from normal family. Her dad was a Cooper. You've seen 'em in the census, you follow them. They're kind of in, in kind of the Bristol area. Then they moved to London at one point as well. And so, yeah, so how she ends up in Jersey is somewhat of a mystery, to be honest. It's interesting, kind of following her, her early life and seeing her kind of move from, from a few different places. Mentions her as being as a scholar in, in one of the census when she, when she was younger. And then all of a sudden in 1901, she ends up in Jersey and there's no real indication as to why she came here, what the reasons were. I mean, she was involved with the Methodist Church and the Tempus movement, so maybe there was a, a kind of a reason behind that, that that might have been why they came here.
Stuart (01:30):
But it, but it's interesting that she ended up here. I mean, you look in the, the census and you see a sm, she's the only one in Jersey at that time, so there's no family link by the looks of things. But she lives she comes to Jersey in the 1901 census. She's living with a lady called Ms. Duffy, and it seems they're, they're kind of running a drapery business at that time. But you look, start looking at the newspapers and you start seeing, actually, they're deeply involved in kind of the Methodist Church, and they're going out and they're preaching and they're kind of preaching in mission halls and things like that. And as I mentioned, kind of involved in the Temperance Movement. So very much going amongst kind of normal people, just saying actually that, talking about the dangers of drink. And that's when it, I kind of, I think probably her political thing starts coming in, in terms of actually seeing how drink affected some families and wanting to make a difference. So I suspect, I mean, you kind of draw inferences from what, what the surroundings are of, of these people. But that feels like that's maybe where she started to get into kind of the political movement and wanting to make lives better for people. So
Perry (02:36):
Is that her, her first kind of topic? Was that stopping drinking or outlawing drinking or,
Stuart (02:42):
I mean, she talks about the kind of the dangers of drink and, and encouraging people not, not to drink and talking about kind of the dangers of, of cheap al cheap alcohol for people to be able to have access to it. And the worry is about kind of the breaking up of the family. The worry is about the, the wives and, and, and the men coming home and actually there being no money, but also that potentially leading to violence. The worry is about children going hungry as well. Kind of, if the money is spent on alcohol, then actually the children aren't gonna be able to be fed in the evening. So I suspect that's, that's kind of really where it comes from. And, and kind of obviously kind of her social conscience is, is really pricked by, by this, this thing. I mean, it, it talks about her going to these Temperance Association events, but it's not entirely clear how bombastic and how strong she was on it. But it, it kind of in her talks later on, and in her writings, it feels like it's from the family. And she's, she's seen the dangers of alcohol to, to family. And she's worried that actually if people go out and spend all their money on alcohol, actually there's gonna be a deterioration. It's gonna be a kind of a backlash at home.
Mel (03:47):
Yeah. So it seems obvious from the research that she's dealing with very vulnerable people quite a lot, and she's seeing the struggles of, of what it's like for people that are less fortunate. But I read somewhere that she, she in particular, she took a real interest in what was going on for women at the time, and that the women were having some real struggles. So how do we think that that kind of flows into the amazing work that she does going forward?
Stuart (04:12):
Well, I, I, I, I suspect, I mean, going into kind of mission churches and halls and things like that, and talking to people, she saw the struggles of everyday people. And that's something that permeates, it's not just women. It's kind of everyday people and nor normal people, it's kind of, she sees the elites and kind of the, the common person. She's always trying to make life better mm-hmm. For, for the common person. So she sees kind of almost the injustices that kind of a, a, a bread as she goes out and, and, and meets these different people. And I think that's probably where yeah, her interest is peaked. She actually wants to make a difference as a result of seeing kind of some of the catastrophes that, that some people run into. And yeah, as, as kind of the, the plight of women and kind of their, the inequity within the home is, is obviously kind of evident at that point.
Stuart (05:00):
And she knows that women and men should be equal, and she sees that there's that inequity there. She wants to make a difference. And you can see that kind of, she, she's an inveterate writer to the to the local newspapers, which is amazing because we, it gives her a voice. Mm. We kind of, some people, you, you kind of, you don't have that, that intimate knowledge of them. Well, we don't have any personal letters relating to her, but actually, because she wrote to the papers so much talking about these issues that were really dear to her heart and wants to make her opinion known and wants to kind of her hear her voice to be heard, actually, we've got this evidence of, of kind of what she was thinking at that particular time and what was important to her. So you start, I mean, by necessity, it's kind of a public persona, but you start putting together what her persona was like, and you start reading those writings. And certainly from my perspective, I, I really enjoyed reading them and kind of, you get to know her better through that. And actually, I really liked her. And so it was a pleasure to be able to kind of research into her and find out more about her. It was amazing. I
Perry (06:02):
Wonder if she was like influenced by, obviously she came from England and Jersey, I presume I could be wrong, might have been a little bit further behind, progressively with maybe public health and women's rights and stuff like that. Would you say that, like, she came from England, saw that Jersey needed to kind of, I don't wanna say modernize, but, you know, move forward in that way?
Stuart (06:26):
I, I think she, again, I mean, inevitably England we're, we're further back than they should be with, with women's rights and the like. But I, as you say, I'm, I, they were further along than Jersey was kind of the, the voting Act came in in England in Guernsey, even before it came in in Jersey. That's crazy. I know. Well, it's, it's something that we should hang our heads for that really. But so it's, it's, it's really interesting to see that. And I think she probably did see that kind of, actually, things were different where she, she came from to a certain extent. And there's a really interesting thing that kind of goes throughout, because actually that almost counts against her within kind of local circles, the fact that she was from England mm-hmm. And that she, she wanted to kind of changed things and they were like, well, this, this is not the Jersey way.
Stuart (07:14):
This is not the way we should be doing this. And there was, I, I suspect, yeah, there, there was some backlash because she was English. If it was from someone from Jersey saying, actually, we need to move forward and we need to change, then actually, I think there'd have been more sympathetic ears to that. Whereas the fact she was coming over here and telling the men over here what they should be doing was not, was met with some something of like, hostility in terms of actually, like, and there were other people within the movement as well who were similar, who were coming over from England and, and kind of there was a backlash because they were, they, these people were English. I mean, it's really interesting seeing the, the juxtaposition of the English movement, the women's suffrage movement and the Jersey one, because there was, obviously in England you had civil disobedience and you had kind of acts that were meant to, to shock and provoke. You didn't really have that as much in Jersey. So it is interesting seeing how, how the, the, the movement developed over time and how it contrasted to, to the English movement. And I suspect I mean, as you said, kind of it was influenced by these people's experience in the uk but maybe kind of in a different environment in Jersey was somewhat tempered as a result of that. So she
Mel (08:28):
Quite obviously sees there's like a gap between the community and politically where things are moving. So how does she transition from the community work into the political kind of agenda?
Stuart (08:39):
I mean, it's really starts with those letters and starts with, she, she's involved with the kind of a workers' association as well. And you see, particularly during World War I she's writing letters about, she's worried about families. She's worried about kind of fathers that have gone on to war and, and obviously the children and the mothers left over here and maybe not being able to kind of deal with the poverty and not having that income. So she, she really kind of starts to, during that time, really push that agenda in terms of making sure that we look after our society properly. I mean, world War I was an interesting time anyway, because there was a difference. Women's roles changed during World War I Yeah, for sure, because they had to, because there was no people working in the land. There was no people working in factories because everyone had gone off to war.
Stuart (09:25):
So kind of, you see a really interesting change in, in women's roles at that time. And, and Caroline obviously had seen that and actually had always believed it was the right thing to do, but maybe saw it as an opportunity in order to kind of push that agenda even further. So you see, as soon as World War I is finished and the armistice is, is signed that actually she writes the paper saying on how it's time to give women the vote. And she doesn't waste any time. Well, no, she sees, I mean, there's an opportun to a certain extent there, but I mean, it's, I mean, it was right. It was kind of the way that yeah, society was changing and, and actually it was a, an opportunity really to, to to point the fact that actually it down was the time to change. And it, I mean, it worked.
Stuart (10:09):
I mean, it wasn't just her obviously, but she was a key voice in that struggle to get women the franchise in Jersey. And, and kind of, it, it worked, it did make a difference. And, and finally the following year, in 1919, actually women did get the vote for the first time, which was a, a massive step, as I say, out of step with England and Guernsey. They got it first, but finally we fell in line to a certain extent with, with, with the rest of them. And, and kind of normal working men got the vote at that point as well. So that was something else that she was interested in actually. It wasn't just the elites and kind of the rate payers able to vote. K let's stretch this franchise further, which is a really kind of interesting discussion that was had in the States as well.
Stuart (10:49):
So at the time, it was 30-year-old women who were gonna be able to get the vote, but there was one of the deputies in the States at the time was arguing that 16-year-old men and women should get the vote, which is something that kind of was obviously laughed out of town at the time, but we're now at that phase now. Yeah. So, yeah, so it was, it was great that finally we're able to start on the start on the road, and actually women started having that voice that they'd lacked in the past. And as I said, Caroline was kind of a key person within that movement.
Perry (11:19):
Was she in touch with any, any of her sort of comrades in in England with the women's rights movement or anything like
Stuart (11:25):
That? So you do see I've had a look at the British newspaper archive to see if there's anything there. And the struggles of women in Jersey were covered within kind of the women's suffrage movement at the time, kind of, they had various newspapers that, that were being published at that particular point. And she or someone within the movement, evidently, was sending updates of what was happening in Jersey and the struggle that they were coming up against. So it, it was, yeah, it was obviously known about at the time, but it does feel quite separate to, to the movement as well. It wasn't kind of necessarily hand in hand with it, but there was obviously kind of a, a exchange of information and a knowledge of what was going on both here and, and what was happening in the uk. Yeah. So she
Perry (12:09):
Was, she was interested in, in basically, as you say, like looking after families. Does does she have a family herself?
Stuart (12:16):
So she got married to, so she was Caroline Mcom. So she got married to a Mr. Trashy, which is a great name. They were living at Pier Road when they first get married. So they got married in 1911 to Philip John trashy. So he was 24. He was a painter at that time. It's quite interesting following her through because she's listed as being 37 at that point in the church record, but in actuality, she was 42 years of age. So as she got older, she started losing age of her off, off her actual age, which is, which is quite interesting to be able to see. I don't quite know what, what the reason behind that was. But yeah, she, she started aging herself as she got older, maybe because there was quite an age gap between the two. Wow. It's a possibility. So that's quite late
Mel (13:03):
For a woman at that time to get married. Really? Yeah. Yeah,
Stuart (13:06):
She was, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and, but it seems they were both within kind of the mission church movement and kind of going out and preaching. So they seemed to preach together and were like-minded. And I mean, I haven't really been able to find too much about Philip. He was quite a kind of a silent partner in a way. But the fact that she was obviously a formidable person and the fact that, I mean, he has to be quite progressive in, in the way as well, that, that actually, I'm assuming he encouraged Caroline to kind of follow, follow what she believed in. Mm-Hmm. I mean, I dunno if he could stop her, even if wanted to <laugh>, she was a force <laugh>, especially if she was a force to be reckoned with. But it feels like he was quite a, a modern man in that way in terms of, of actually encouraging that they never have children. She was obviously, as I said, she was 42 when they married. But there is a real, kind of, throughout her political career, she does always mention kind of the small children. So there was obviously whether there was a a, a yearning to have children or just kind of a, a social conscience and a and, and somebody who, who cares about those around her, which I'm certain she was, so, yeah. So she never does have children, but it, it kind of definitely that worry for people in society is throughout all her, all her work.
Perry (14:24):
You said there was an age gap between, between them. How old was?
Stuart (14:27):
So he was 24. 24. Oh, wow. Wow. She wow. She was 14. That's
Perry (14:30):
A big gap. That's a huge age gap.
Stuart (14:32):
<Laugh>. Wow. Yeah. So they, so they also, interestingly, I, so I've done some research. So they lived at Pier Road when they first got married. So I've done research into Pier Road. Pier Road is really interesting, <laugh>. It was basically the red light District. No way. Yeah, yeah. There was a mission church on Pier Road, which I wonder if they're attached to, because I mean, basically you had four region at the top with the soldiers. You had the harbor at the bottom with the sailors Ding d in the middle. There's, you know, there's the mural at the top of, of kind of the steps to going down to the ordinance yard. Yeah. If you look at it, there's like a winking lady on there. That's the Lady of the Night that it's nodding towards kind of the history of P Road. When I was doing research back in the like 18 hundreds, I found multiple brothels kind of on their public houses being refused licenses because they, they were kind of had ladies of the night working for them.
Stuart (15:22):
So it's interesting that she's, I mean, by 1911 it's a lot less, although it was still kind of a, a, a wink and kind of, oh, you're from Pier Road, are you, kind of thing. Right. So she, they were kind of in the center of it when they first got married before later they moved to first Tower and then Koha, which actually the, the road rooted trashy is near Koha, but near where they lived, but isn't named for her. It's kind of, some people make the mistake that it's, it's named for Caroline. It isn't, but it feels appropriate that it's named that. Anyway, I wonder if his family had some kind of property around there, and it was kind of them historically from that. But no, it's, it's yeah, you have all these little kind of tendrils and things that you can follow, which are quite interesting.
Mel (16:07):
That's very cool. Seeking a unique getaway. Why not book a Jersey Heritage Holiday? Let from Coastal towers, cozy cottages and country apartments, we really do have something for everyone. Head over to our website and check availability Jersey Heritage members. You guys get a discount. So sign up today. From some of the stuff that I've read on Caroline, it's, it's clear that she was a very talented speaker and that she was really good at capturing people's attention. And obviously that those are amazing skills to go into a political arena. But what were some of her struggles other than obviously locals kind of finding her a bit tricky, but not being a local, but what were some of her other struggles in terms of that political scene?
Stuart (16:56):
Well, I think, I mean, she, she was abrasive really kind of in terms of her writings. You see that how she could wind people up. And it is, I mean, it is really interesting seeing, seeing kind of what she was doing at that time. So she was approached in 1922 to sit as a deputy. So 1919 women got the vote. And so it was, it was assumed that that meant that women could stand for election. Women were allowed to sign nomination papers. So kind of, that was an extra thing that they did at the time. So she was approached in 1922 that they, like a deputation came to her at Barford Cafe and said, would you stand? So she put herself forward, and there was lots of rumblings over whether a woman would be eligible to stand for election, whether the fact that they had the vote meant that they were able to stand as a politician or not was a bone of contention at that particular time.
Stuart (17:51):
And she kind of, you see there's lots of letters writing to the newspaper at the time, and she kind of dismisses them out of hand saying kind of, it's, it's, it's not a problem at all. It'll be fine. So she, she goes to, to the nomination meeting, and she's nominated. So Mr. Lyons Montgomery, who's a big supporter at the time, he comes forward and he makes a speech about all the work that she's done. The hall, apparently at the, the parish hall was the town hall was absolutely packed. It was like, it would be not been seen for a while, how busy it would be, kind of standing room only. And there was lots of people standing at the back. So she was standing first and he deputy in district number three, there were three people who were standing. So there was only two seats.
Stuart (18:32):
So this was gonna be a contested election. So everyone did their speeches and, and then the, the constable at the end stood up and the newspaper makes mention of the fact that it was an ominous sign that the constable came armed with law books in front of him, kind of read his quote them. So he stands up and, and, and he says, the first candidate is eligible. That's not a problem at all. The second candidate is eligible. That's not a problem at all. The third candidate Mrs. Trashy, unfortunately is not, it's not eligible under the law. And so I'm not able to, I'm not able to allow her can litre. And I think she, she does, she does make kind of a little speech at the end of it, kind of obviously upset that, that he denied her her can litre. So the reason behind that was that the law around people who could stand for election dates to about 1857, I think it is, and that at that time, those who stood for election were defined as a man basically.
Stuart (19:32):
So, so it was so she was considered not eligible as a result of that. So they said, you can put in a, a kind of an objection right now, and they declined to do that. But Mr. Lyons Montgomery decided actually, I'm gonna bring a case in the Royal Court saying that this is unjust and that I'm being denied kind of my rights as an elector to nominate this woman. Wow. So they go to the Royal court and it's heard, so the, the, the deputies who were, who had won the election because she was not allowed their swearing in was paused and it was heard in the Royal Court. And it's, I mean, it's a really interesting case to read and kind of reading from the newspaper about what was happening at that time and what was talked about in court. Because the person who was not, who was representing Mr. Lyons Montgomery, was basically saying, it wasn't down to the constable to decide whether she was eligible or not, it should be down to the court.
Stuart (20:34):
And the court almost laughed him out of lasting, out of town. They were kind of saying there were various things that she was compared to. So they were saying, obviously you had to be British to stand, they, they kind of said something like well, would you allow a Chinaman to stand if it, if, would the constable allow a Chinaman Chinaman to stand? Would they allow a madman to stand? Was another one that they compared her to? What this would be an, so they, they called it kind of a, they, they said You'd be allowing electoral comedy if you allowed her to stand, would you allow a dead person to stand? It's another thing they, they kind of what almost compared her to God. So, so she obviously kind of so they kind of almost laughed it out of town. And the, the bailiff who was venables Vernon at the time, dismissed the case, said that there wasn't anything to stand, actually, the law didn't allow her to stand to the cat as a candidate, obviously comparing her to all these things, which we, she wasn't very impressed with. And she used going forward as kind of an argument, oh, brilliant, this, this, this is kind of what they say about me. And, and yeah. So, so she was, she was not allowed to stand. She lost that, that case in 1922 or 1923 was when it was heard.
Perry (21:43):
They sound like nice people, <laugh>.
Mel (21:46):
That's just like, they're, that's madness. They're not even normal comparable things. That's like, what? That's, well,
Perry (21:51):
It's like they're, it doesn't even sound really like they're even looking at the law. They're just like,
Mel (21:55):
Oh, finding anything. She's mental. So Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can't have a, possibly have a mad woman in post. Yeah. Crazy. That's crazy.
Stuart (22:02):
So, so it's, so, I mean, so it's, it is, it is really interesting. So she, so she then moves on, so she's wants to obviously escalate this because Yeah, if, if they'd have just allowed her to stand, then she'd probably gone. Okay. And she might have won, she might not have won the election, we don't know. But actually maybe the law wouldn't have been moved on as a result of that. So she then calls a meeting of, I think she, she says it's of all the nice ladies in Jersey or something like that. <Laugh>, she, she says it has, so they have a big meeting at West Park Pavilion where she's kind of on the, on the panel at the top. There's another Mr. Alliance, Montgomery is up there as well. There's some other, some other women as well, that one of the Wilsons who were involved in setting up the animal shelter is on there as well.
Stuart (22:49):
Oh, nice. So it was a mixture of people on there, and they basically give speeches kind of excoriating, the, the kind of the states at the time saying that, kind of saying who they had compared her to in this court case saying that Jersey was stuck in the dark ages. That again, which kind of rubbed jersey people up the wrong way. The fact that kind of British womens coming over and telling them, even if it was true that they were stuck in the dark ages, that kind of, there was a pervading atmosphere of kind of yeah. Nastiness within that court that she wasn't listened to properly, et cetera, et cetera. And that actually, we, we need to kind of move, move this on from that meeting. They form a union, the Women's Jersey Political Union, which then is kind of the group which they are then gonna carry forward this kind of, this striving to get the vote forward and well to, for, for women to be able to stand for election in Jersey.
Stuart (23:45):
So she, surprisingly enough, is the president of that group, <laugh>. But there, there are lots of other, I think the first meeting there was over a hundred women who went to that. So it's, it's kind of a, a big deal. That's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big deal at the time. It's, it's amazing that they kind of, so many people were, were were moving forward with this, and actually they, they realized that it was time for change and they needed to kind of push this forward. Mm. So, yeah. So they, they start pushing for the, the law to be changed, and the law is changed, allowing women to stand as as, as a politician. However, it's not quite as simple as that. So the presumption is the law's changed. It's fine, she can stand, but there was still an issue in that the law of Jersey at the time was such that once women got married, they're almost seen as chattels of their husbands.
Stuart (24:43):
Mm. They, when they got married, all of the women's belongings that she took into that marriage became the husband's property. Mm. And so actually kind of, they were, yeah, they were not seen as kind of independent people. They were, they were almost, as I said, kind of chattels of Aspen. So, so what needs to be, what needs to happen basically was that you needs to get what was called a se ion. So that's not a separation as in separating the marriage. There's no kind of divorce or anything at that particular point. It's meaning that you have to go to the royal court in order to get this separate asion, which was a, a, a legal process whereby the woman was seen as kind of a, a, i kind of different to the Aspen, was seen as an individual rather than kind of have all the property being kept together.
Stuart (25:31):
So this was always, this was always the, the law that was introduced, I think in the 18 hundreds, I think it was. So this was the, the, the law that you needs to get kind of this s in order to be considered as like a, an individual away from your husband. So in February, 1925, the Married Woman's Property Act was adopted. So this was an act that meant that women no longer had to get a separate as in order to be considered kind of separate to their husbands. So before that time, I mean, it's, it is quite interesting when you think about it, that actually there had to be an agreement between the husband and the wife to even go to the Royal Court in the first place. Yeah. And so actually, if there was kind of an abusive relationship, that kind of stuff, actually, the, the husband was no way gonna agree to, to that kind of thing happening.
Stuart (26:24):
Mm-Hmm. So finally in February, 1925, this married woman's property act was introduced which meant that women no longer had to go to court in order to get a separate, I mean, it's quite interesting at the time, because the bailiff commented this is what some people call progress. One of these days, we may have to pass a, a law to protect husbands, is what he said at the time, <laugh> outrageous. So, I mean, it makes kind of, yeah, it's pretty obvious what, what his views were at that particular time. Yeah, I'm not certain we've quite got to that stage yet, but you know, I know. So actually, this was fantastic because finally, the thing that stopped her from standing the last time it was, she was now women were allowed to stand. She didn't need to go to court to get this s she was eligible to stand.
Stuart (27:12):
And so she, once again, in 1925 in December, put herself forward again for the same district. So St. Heller at number three, district eight in order to become a deputy. So, great. You think finally she's gonna be able to hear the public's voice and see what happens to her, and if she's gonna get elected or not? Unfortunately, again, oh no, Caroline, the life of Caroline didn't quite go smoothly. So the problem was that that 1925 act wasn't retrospective. So because she was married before 1925, she still needs to go and get a separate asel from the court because it'd be unfair to husbands who got married before. This was the, this is not me talking, this is the, the government talking. It be unfair to husbands who were born before that act. They didn't know what they were getting into, that, that, that they would kind of, they, they still need to go and get a separate ason.
Stuart (28:07):
Aw. So she goes again, she goes to the town hall, she stands up in front of the, the, the people again. And she once again, kind of the speeches are made and the, the, basically the, the para solicit, there was a letter from the Paris solicitor basically saying that you couldn't accept her nomination. He'd taken advice from the Crown officers, and they said that she wasn't eligible because she was married before 1925. And so it wasn't able to happen. Apparently, she'd been warned in advance. So there is an element that you wonder if it was slightly performative as well, that she was actually making a point as well, which actually is quite admirable in a way. Mm-Hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Although it is, it is in kind of, I, you kind of see from the Women's Jersey political Union, I think some of them were getting frustrated at the time thinking, well, we could just, your husband's gonna go get a separate aseo, or we could do that.
Stuart (29:00):
We could get it sorted. We could stand. But actually she, me, she's making that point that actually this system is still unfair mm-hmm <affirmative>. That she's not able to stand in the way that she should be able to. She's inequitable. And so it's, yeah, it's, it shouldn't be the case. So she then tries to bring a case in the Royal Court, but because she's not got a Sion, the court refused to hear her. So again, she's like, shut down, shut down. That like, there's, there's no process for women who don't have that sion to be heard in court. It would have to be someone who was separated or would have to be a man in order to kind of have their voice heard. So yeah. So the struggle went on <laugh>. So she does, she, she obviously never gets elected, so she never gets elected. So she is finally in 1928, so let's say the, the elections happening for de every three years at that time.
Stuart (29:53):
So finally in, in 1928, she puts herself forward and the union say to her, go and get a separate ason, because if you don't, you are not gonna able to stand. And she kind of bustles against this. She doesn't like this fact at all, but she does go and get the separate ason. So she's now considered by the law as being, as being perfectly legal to stand. So she puts herself forward. I think there, there are four people who are, are nominated at that particular time. So Deputy Lamare gets 579 votes. Second place is Mr. Gray, who gets 553. Sadly, Caroline gets fourth place. She gets 169 votes. And so obviously she doesn't get in, there's only two places available. So she, she, she doesn't reach the, the echelons of, of the states of Go Jersey. So it's really, it is kind of sad that she never did, but it's almost beautiful as well, that actually she was putting that fight, everything put up against her, and yet she carried on that fight and kept pushing it, and kept pushing that agenda, kept pushing for equality and fairness, but it never actually kind of quite breached it herself.
Stuart (31:05):
But I think that's, I, I think it's amazing. And I, I think it's, it is amazing as well that, I mean, I, to be honest, I'd never heard of her until 2019 when the a hundred years of women's suffrage came along. And she talks throughout her writings of kind of, I, I don't, I don't necessarily wanna be the first, but if I'm a pioneer, then so be it. And she's kind of happy to put herself forward. And I think it's amazing that the government's celebration of the, the a hundred years of women's suffrage jersey archive did, what's her street story that year? So I, I had the privilege. I mean, I didn't, I didn't know her story at all. I don't think many of us knew the story. There were a few people who'd kind of written things for parish magazines and stuff, but it wasn't widely known at all.
Stuart (31:54):
So it really kind of gave us the opportunity to find out about this, this amazing woman. She's just, she's just incredible. And, and there is so many writings about her that we could, we could kind of follow and find out more about her. That it's great that she's now held up as this pioneer and this kind of this, this, this amazing woman who was doing amazing things well ahead of her time. I mean, her, her speech, you just kind of think how humiliated she might have felt when she kind of stood up at the end of that, she'd been fighting, and this was the third election she was fighting. She was finally able to, to stand, and she lost easily. She was, she was lost by a long way. And she stood up at the end of, of that at the town hall. And there was lots of people in the hall. There was lots of men banging and kind of laughing and kind of it wasn't necessarily the most easy atmosphere to be able to talk through. And you read what she said. So they, they quote it in the JP what her speech was. So she says, I'm the last and I'm the least. Oh, yes, you may cheer away, but if you'd only voted for me, I would've been at the top of the poll instead of at the bottom. However, I'm defeated, but I'm not beaten.
Mel (33:06):
Go on Caroline.
Stuart (33:07):
Which I think to have the presence of mind Mm. To put together a line like, I'm defeated, but I'm not beaten Yeah. In that kind of hostile atmosphere. And to be able to say that I think is just, I just think it's incredible, really. She's just an amazing woman. She went on and say, I want to thank all those who voted for me, and to assure you that it's been a very clean fight, but a proper wash out for Mrs. Trashy <laugh>. I'd also like to say that you ought to be ashamed of yourselves not to have voted better. That's not many of you could truthfully add Washington to your names, because according to the promises I've received, I should have been top of the poll. I'm afraid some of you have been telling black ones. However, don't forget that next time I'm coming forward again.
Mel (33:50):
And does she, does she come forward again?
Stuart (33:53):
She never does. Aw, she never does. So she never reaches kind of that, that that peak. It, it doesn't happen. No woman gets elected into the States until the 1940s. But the fact she made kind of, I, I suspect it was actually, she wasn't particularly well, woman. I mean, by that time she was in her sixties mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? Yeah, we do, she did live during the occupation. We do have an occupation registration card of her, but it doesn't have a photograph on it, which I suspect those who were not well at that time were, were exempt from having their photograph taken. So I suspect that's the reason, which is a real shame. The only photograph that exists of her is one from the Sote jersey library that we've been able to find see, anyway on a pamphlet on a, on a leaflet that was written when Ivy Forster was first elected deputy in, in 1948, basically harking back and talking about Carolina as, as a pioneer in this amazing woman who made a difference.
Stuart (34:50):
But yeah, no, she never reaches never reaches that peak, which is the same, but also it's kind of a, I think it's quite amazing as well. It kind of, she, she kept coming back and she kept, she didn't care if, if she didn't win, she kind of kept fighting the system. It was the system she was fighting against, and kind of those prejudices held by, by those of those kind of in our society. But actually, she kept coming back for more. And she kept, she didn't care. She was, she was gonna stand up and she, she did it.
Mel (35:17):
But in many ways, she is the winner. She wins. 'cause She gets that, that kind of conversation going. She obviously ruffles feathers. She makes massive change, and she paves the way for Ivy Foster who comes later. So,
Stuart (35:29):
I mean, definitely she, she, she was a, a pioneer. She paved the way, no doubt about that at all. As I said, I think, I think it's amazing that now she's now in the school curriculum in Jersey No way. Amazing. Someone that, that kind of held up. She's written about in the kind of, there was a book written about influential women in Jersey. She was, she was clear in that. So I kind of, I imagine her looking down whatever your views are, kind of just kind of actually her legacy. She knew exactly if she knew that at the time that she was making that difference. And actually she was gonna be remembered. She wasn't necessarily remembered that much kind of, kind of from the 1950s onwards, but actually this, she's really come back to the fore in Jersey history, which is why it's, and it's really important that we talk about her and, and what she did.
Stuart (36:19):
And it's great that we're able to as kind of historians as archivists to be able to tell her story. This is, this is what being kind of an historian is all about, kind of finding these stories, these intimate stories, and being able to, to tell them and give voice to those who, who aren't around anymore. And to, to show what they've done and show that they've done amazing things. And there's no doubt about it that she was an incredible woman and someone that, yeah, I mean, I, I've said to different kind of audiences in the past. I was talking to a school group of of about 15 girls in year 13 the other day about her legacy and who she was and what she was doing. And she's, there's no doubt about it, kind of completely inspirational and, and just kind of a, an incredible woman and, and, and someone we should definitely talk about and know more about.
Mel (37:08):
What I found, what I find really interesting, exactly what you just said, Stuart, is that her story's only really come to light around 2019. So it just goes to show that as we evolve as people and as as like, you know, civilization, we're constantly, these topics kind of come back to the surface, and then you start thinking, well, who else is there to look into and who else is gonna kind of come up to light for us? So it's, it's really interesting that, that we, we found her story and who knows what else we'll find in the next 30, 50, 60, 70 years. So
Stuart (37:37):
I, I mean, it's really, it is, it is, it is fantastic. I mean, it, it is interesting when the JP put in kind of a small notice when she died as someone who wrote to their paper kind of lots and lots kind of putting forward her viewpoints and things. And they said at that time she was well ahead of her time, which I think is, is a hundred percent right. And you see these different people. So you see Caroline, I, I mean, I think it's interesting you look at someone like Hun and Marcel Moore as well, who are massively ahead of their time, who only in recent times now, their legacy and, and kind of the, the things that they were doing in kind of the 1930s, 1940s kind of with, with their art. I mean, it's similar to her really, of being able to talk about her now and tell young boys and girls about what she did and what she was fighting for. And I think that's a, a wonderful thing to be able to do.
Perry (38:29):
So obviously, so they had this, the Women's Jersey Political Union, then they kind of rallied around her early on. Do we know about the nature and extent of, of any kind of male support as well? Is there anyone talking about
Stuart (38:41):
That or, I mean, you definitely have it. So you definitely have it within, within the states even. I mean, men are, again, you have that really interesting conversation and debates within the states. As I said, someone said, actually 16 year olds should have the vote for, for both men and women. There's also some who say that women are too flighty to, to get the vote and, and shouldn't be shouldn't have it. And then there are some who say kind of, we should start at 30. We shouldn't be younger than that. Because by that time, women know a little bit more about the world. Mm-Hmm. And then other men within the state saying actually kind of, I don't agree. Men can be as flighty as a 21-year-old, as a woman as 21. And that's something else that, that she says as well. So you do see, and, and, and her nominators were, were kind of men. So you do see there, there was that movement within, within men in the island realizing that there had to be change. So it wasn't just women, but the Women's Jersey Political Union was the women fighting for that, right? Mm-Hmm. But yeah, you had people defending them and, and biting to the paper and things. So there definitely was, it wasn't cut and dried. It was men against women. There was definitely supporters of, of women within, within the community over here.
Mel (39:59):
And were there any other women at the time, so when, when Caroline was like, right, well, I wanna stand, were there any other women that were like, actually, this sounds really good, I'd quite like to do this too. Do we have anything like that on record?
Stuart (40:08):
Not rea No, not that, not that I'm aware of. So she was definitely, I mean, she was a hundred percent the first, but I, yeah. I'm not aware of anyone standing after that until Ivy later on.
Mel (40:21):
And that's sometime that's like much later.
Stuart (40:24):
Yeah. Post liberation. Yeah. And obviously, I mean, Ivy forced to, had a, had a profile over here kind of involved with kind of things that took place during the occupation. She was the sister of Louisa Gould and Harold <inaudible>, and also kind of worked within the community. But yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not aware of, of kind of any others. Mm-Hmm. There's that big gap between kind of 1928 and 48 when actually someone, someone was able to, to get in. So it's no, it's an interesting thing
Mel (40:53):
That's really interesting. And I might be wrong with this, but I, I think, so the document we have in the Terry Deje, is that her, she's the first signature on that document. Yes. So you can actually go to the Jersey Museum to see the letter deger the new exhibition and actually see the document where all these women signed this petition. So
Stuart (41:14):
That's the one from 1924. Yeah. So there, there were different petitions over time. So that was the one from 1924. So she signed that. Amazingly enough, my great-grandmother signed that as well. Oh, no way. So yeah, so my sister's actually in the exhibition talking about that, that
Mel (41:30):
Oh, that's lovely
Stuart (41:31):
Stuart. So, so, which is quite amazing. That is amazing. That link to, to Caroline, which is, which is, oh,
Mel (41:38):
So you've got like a real personal connection to this story, which is even more special. Yeah,
Stuart (41:42):
Yeah. But it is funny 'cause I, I didn't know that until one of my colleagues was doing research into the exhibition and, and was, was looking at the petition and, and said, actually, is that because they knew my, my nan's maiden name and said, is that, is that a relation to you? And I looked at it and I was like, well, yeah, it's the right address. It is that one. So, so
Mel (42:00):
What was your grandmother, your great Stewart? Great. Yeah. Yeah. So
Stuart (42:03):
Stewart, yeah, her surname was Stewart. So my first name
Mel (42:05):
Was
Stuart (42:06):
Yeah, so her surname was Stewart, so Mrs. Stewart signed that.
Mel (42:09):
There you go. So you can go and see Stewart's family member <laugh> in the Terry to area signature. 'cause They're accompanied by these beautiful portraits Yes. Of all of the women that signed the petition. So you can go and see the document and see their signatures relating to their, their faces, which is a really, really lovely way of displaying such an amazing document. Thank you very much for your time today, Stuart. It's been really, really great talking to you about Caroline and really bringing her story to light. So thank you very much. Thank you.
Stuart (42:35):
Thank you.
Mel (42:38):
If you enjoy today's episode, don't forget to click on the subscribe button for more.